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Division 1B ignorance?

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2017 National Hurling League Division 1 semi-finals:
Tipperary (1A) v Wexford (1B)
Galway (1B) v Limerick (1B)

Wexford, Galway and Limerick were always likely to make the league quarter-finals. They had tough games against each other in 1B and other games in which to bring through new players.

On a level below, Westmeath from 2A have been getting the better of their Leinster qualifier group opponents from 1B in recent years.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 02/04/2017 17:44:20    1974222

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Replying To legendzxix:  "2017 National Hurling League Division 1 semi-finals:
Tipperary (1A) v Wexford (1B)
Galway (1B) v Limerick (1B)

Wexford, Galway and Limerick were always likely to make the league quarter-finals. They had tough games against each other in 1B and other games in which to bring through new players.

On a level below, Westmeath from 2A have been getting the better of their Leinster qualifier group opponents from 1B in recent years."
All true, but whats the ignorance you're referring to?

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/04/2017 17:50:02    1974226

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Replying To legendzxix:  "2017 National Hurling League Division 1 semi-finals:
Tipperary (1A) v Wexford (1B)
Galway (1B) v Limerick (1B)

Wexford, Galway and Limerick were always likely to make the league quarter-finals. They had tough games against each other in 1B and other games in which to bring through new players.

On a level below, Westmeath from 2A have been getting the better of their Leinster qualifier group opponents from 1B in recent years."
whats your point? waterford won the league from 1b two years ago...what or who is ignorant towards 1b?

juniorjudge (Waterford) - Posts: 383 - 02/04/2017 17:53:42    1974230

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "All true, but whats the ignorance you're referring to?"
Comments that it'll be a disaster to drop to 1B. Comments that it's a disaster for Galway and Limerick to be stuck in 1B.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 02/04/2017 18:11:55    1974256

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What exactly is your point. The only conclusion I can come to is that there is very little between the top 9 teams. Its been a fantastic league. I cant recall one dead rubber game.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 02/04/2017 18:25:37    1974272

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Kerry hurlers screwed by the shifting goal posts again, couldn't get legitimately promoted for 2 years and now they fall victim to the promotion/relegation play off being scrapped, despite the fact Laois had the safety blanket last year.

Promoting the development of hurling my @rse :(

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 02/04/2017 18:30:36    1974280

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Replying To ZUL10:  "What exactly is your point. The only conclusion I can come to is that there is very little between the top 9 teams. Its been a fantastic league. I cant recall one dead rubber game."
Every 1b game after the second week was a dead rubber. 1b was an awful league.

mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 02/04/2017 18:48:02    1974299

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He doesnt know how to debate. Dont mind him.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 02/04/2017 18:54:18    1974304

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Comments that it'll be a disaster to drop to 1B. Comments that it's a disaster for Galway and Limerick to be stuck in 1B."
Oh yeah, 1b is not a bad deal at all. If a team goes down to 1b, they'll still have 2 games against top tier sides, and 3 games against middle tier sides, where they can experiment a bit (no disrespect meant to those teams). And all they have to do is finish in the top 4 to make a quarter-final. By getting relegated today, Dublin have pretty much assured themselves a quarter-final spot in next years league!

This year is interesting though, as there's now a 50% chance that the team that wins this years league, will still be in 1b next year. Expect the usual had-wringing if that happens.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/04/2017 20:13:30    1974380

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Given that there is a Top 9 and the rest - let's draw up a better structure for an even Top 10 -
Three seeding pots 1, 2 and 3 with team quantities of 3, 4 and 3, respectively.
Draw one from each pot to form groups A, B and C of 4, 3 and 3 teams, respectively.
A plays B and C (6 matches) while B and C complete own group round robin (2 + 4 v A, 6 matches).
Top 6 of 10 to NHL KO - 1v6, 2v5, 3v4 with highest ranked of 3 winners getting bye to Final.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2580 - 03/04/2017 05:25:09    1974551

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Replying To omahant:  "Given that there is a Top 9 and the rest - let's draw up a better structure for an even Top 10 -
Three seeding pots 1, 2 and 3 with team quantities of 3, 4 and 3, respectively.
Draw one from each pot to form groups A, B and C of 4, 3 and 3 teams, respectively.
A plays B and C (6 matches) while B and C complete own group round robin (2 + 4 v A, 6 matches).
Top 6 of 10 to NHL KO - 1v6, 2v5, 3v4 with highest ranked of 3 winners getting bye to Final."
It would be interesting if there was a Division with all the best teams in it i.e 9 teams

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 03/04/2017 09:15:56    1974588

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Loughnane made a fair enough point that teams put in such a big effort to avoid relegation, they ease off a bit in the quarter-finals. It still can't be forgotten that two Division 1B teams went on to win their provincial championship a few years ago. Division 1B hasn't hindered anyone's championship.

The current league format while being far from ideal is bringing in decent revenue.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7840 - 03/04/2017 19:00:52    1974983

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5 games in 1a will stand to any team later in the year i think.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/04/2017 09:35:59    1975219

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Comments that it'll be a disaster to drop to 1B. Comments that it's a disaster for Galway and Limerick to be stuck in 1B."
Galway won despite being awful for 50 minutes against a weakened Waterford team. There's another theory being put about....the reason why they were so awful was because they were playing at a lower standard in 3 of their 1B games and so were off the pace. A full strength Waterford/ Tipperary/ Kilkenny would have eaten them last Sunday. You can make valid arguments for completely opposing views re the advantage/disadvantage of being in 1B. The knock out stages of the league are not taken that seriously by some hurling counties and league success guarantees nothing. Remember Clare won the league from 1B last year and went out with a whimper in the championship. If you have ambitions to progress in the championship it is better to be in 1A because the higher standard stands to teams in the heat of championshio

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1903 - 04/04/2017 10:40:09    1975287

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Replying To crikey:  "It would be interesting if there was a Division with all the best teams in it i.e 9 teams"
Ok so we have a 9 or 10 team division 1 created just to please every so called top team. Surely there would be a need for promtion and relegation to this division. Then we have a situation where 1 or 2 of the so called top teams ends up in the second division with the weaker teams and 1 or 2 weak teams comes up to replace them. Al least with the present setup there is a mix of weak and strong temas in the second division.(1b)

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 04/04/2017 10:59:55    1975300

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "Oh yeah, 1b is not a bad deal at all. If a team goes down to 1b, they'll still have 2 games against top tier sides, and 3 games against middle tier sides, where they can experiment a bit (no disrespect meant to those teams). And all they have to do is finish in the top 4 to make a quarter-final. By getting relegated today, Dublin have pretty much assured themselves a quarter-final spot in next years league!

This year is interesting though, as there's now a 50% chance that the team that wins this years league, will still be in 1b next year. Expect the usual had-wringing if that happens."
Clare won the league from Div. 1B laat year and I cannot recall any hand wrining

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4318 - 05/04/2017 22:20:27    1976247

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Replying To Oldtourman:  "Clare won the league from Div. 1B laat year and I cannot recall any hand wrining"
Yeah, but Clare won 1b, and were promoted to 1a for this years league. I was referring to the scenario that would arise if Limerick or Galway won the league outright this year, but would still be in 1b next year (which is what would happen under the current structure). I'm not saying its right or wrong, but if it happened, I imagine it would cause some discussion.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 06/04/2017 00:03:49    1976288

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1A is such that the aim of the game is to stay in the division. Anything above that is a bonus. I dont believe 1a teams target the league specifically until they arrive and if they arrive at a semi final.

The 1b teams have more of a point to prove in the quarters, hence the reason you see what appears to be odd results.

Take Cork and Limerick for example. Cork would have been favorites for relegation from 1a this year due to their abysmal season last year. Once status was secured, mentally they were satisfied with their progress and hence took their feet off the gas.

Tipperary did not appear to take the league overly seriously last year and we beat them in the quarters with a bit of a smash and grab win that was in trust undeserved (much like Waterford beating us in Ennis two weeks ago). Tipperary did not really care however. Status was secure and they could not focus on the championship which they won.

LohansRedHelmet (Clare) - Posts: 2479 - 06/04/2017 01:18:49    1976296

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "1A is such that the aim of the game is to stay in the division. Anything above that is a bonus. I dont believe 1a teams target the league specifically until they arrive and if they arrive at a semi final.

The 1b teams have more of a point to prove in the quarters, hence the reason you see what appears to be odd results.

Take Cork and Limerick for example. Cork would have been favorites for relegation from 1a this year due to their abysmal season last year. Once status was secured, mentally they were satisfied with their progress and hence took their feet off the gas.

Tipperary did not appear to take the league overly seriously last year and we beat them in the quarters with a bit of a smash and grab win that was in trust undeserved (much like Waterford beating us in Ennis two weeks ago). Tipperary did not really care however. Status was secure and they could not focus on the championship which they won."
You honestly think a team of intercounty cork hurlers playing in front of a big home crowd in a quarter final of a national competition (they've won f all recently) just decided not to try that hard against limerick? Nonsense...

blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 1055 - 06/04/2017 04:26:15    1976305

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What if they seeded the league some way where 1a and b were generally equal quality and 2a and b etc so for example 1a could be (tipp waterford clare dublin offaly) and 1b (Kilkenny galway limerick cork wexford) etc and it would be considered one division with the bottom team in each group going down (2 down) or the bottom 4 play relegation semis. The the 2 finalists in division 2 goes up into separate groups of whatever. Or even the leagues could be seeded each year based on championship..

blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 1055 - 06/04/2017 04:35:48    1976306

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