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Replying To kildare73: "Firstly, the vast majority of counties in the country have a bad record against Dublin. They have a consistently good bunch of players year in year out and most counties don't have that. Every county has a cyclical period of success from time to time, ups and downs, as Meath and many more are experiencing at the moment. Secondly, I think your opinion on the Meath/Kildare rivalry is coloured by where you live. I'm in the south of the county and our biggest local rivalry is Laois, not Meath. And as I said in my previous post, Kildare like every other county began the year looking at Dublin. What was beating Meath ever going to get us? Nothing. Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and for the purposes of winning Leinster, Kildare were all focused on Dublin." Where im from, north kildare, people would not consider Laois to be a a rival. Its all about meath and dublin especially meath seeing as they come to the school here in the village.
11jm11 (Kildare) - Posts: 365 - 11/07/2017 10:11:00
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Replying To 11jm11: "Where im from, north kildare, people would not consider Laois to be a a rival. Its all about meath and dublin especially meath seeing as they come to the school here in the village." My point is it depends what end of the county you come from. You are north Kildare so Meath become a more intense rival. My house is the last one in Kildare before you cross over into Laois so there is a good level of rivalry.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/07/2017 11:59:41
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That's Bizzare ... I'm living right on the southern tip of Kildare bordering Carlow, within 150 meters of county boundary... no rivalry whatsoever between us, the Jamaicans are sound enough
Kildare30 (Kildare) - Posts: 603 - 11/07/2017 12:11:01
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Replying To Furlong1949: "What I said was factually correct. Know one addressed that. Dublin cast a long shadow in leinster football. They are the Manchester United Real Madrid of gaelic football. Teams that have beaten Dublin have had to deliver performance of a lifetime eg Kildare 98 Derry 93 Donegal 92 and 12. Westmeath and Laois in the early noughties. Dublin have an aura in leinster and throughout the country when teams play them in Croker. To say otherwise would be false.
Certain teams have a mental barrier as well as an ability barrier to cross to beat an opponent. Look how long it took Waterford to beat Kilkenny or how hard it took the Lions took just to draw with New Zealand. Kildare have one when it comes to Dublin. One line jokes responses to my messages are are just deflecting the truth of what I say. Facts are facts.
Outside Meath no team has beaten Dublin in leinster with a leinster manager in 35 years eg Eugene McGee with Offaly in 82
Outside Meath no team in leinster has beaten Dublin with a manager from their own county since 1981 when Laois defeated with a Laois man.
Kildare have only beaten Dublin in 1 leinster final in over 90 years.
The facts tell the truth. Dublin are the most difficult opponent to beat in Gaelic football. And any team that has done that by and large had a very special group of players. Kildare dont take the fight to Dublin traditionally or in recent times. Remeber their last 3 defeats where hammeringshe ( 11 points, 15 points and 22 points defeat margins ) and 2 of them where record defeats in Kildare history. Atop of Kildare appalling record in Croker. Loss to Galway this year and to Clare and Westmeath last year in Croker. I think they lost well over 20 of their last 30 matchs in Croke Park.
All the above are facts.I wonder will anybody address these facts are just deflect attention with one line quips.
Even this board is a reflection of Kildare mentality. If there is a negative comment to be made about Meath the kildare fans are always in first with a putdown. It happens over and over again. When it comes to Dublin and negative comments they are nowhere to be seen. It's similar to Kildares teams . They just don't have the belief in a way are afraid of Dublin.
I would love to see Kildare win on Sunday for the sake of leinster football. ( I doubt any Kildare supporter would say the same about Meath their hatred and jealousy towards would Meath mean they want Dublin to win). But I have watched Kildare v Dublin for 30 years the fact is with the exception of 98 and for half of a game in 2000. Kildare dont take the fight to Dublin. You have to take the fight to them. In front of hill 16 the Dubs are always incredibly hard to beat and this is their greatest team. For the sake of leinster I hope the lilies win. But Dublin do have kildare in a mental straight jacket. Even their supporters have very little faith when they play Dublin." What has the fact that the manager is not native to the county got to do with anything?
When Dublin won the Leinster hurling final in 2013 I wasn't thinking, "ah, this doesn't count cos Dalo is at the helm".
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 11/07/2017 14:13:35
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Replying To Furlong1949: "What I said was factually correct. Know one addressed that. Dublin cast a long shadow in leinster football. They are the Manchester United Real Madrid of gaelic football. Teams that have beaten Dublin have had to deliver performance of a lifetime eg Kildare 98 Derry 93 Donegal 92 and 12. Westmeath and Laois in the early noughties. Dublin have an aura in leinster and throughout the country when teams play them in Croker. To say otherwise would be false.
Certain teams have a mental barrier as well as an ability barrier to cross to beat an opponent. Look how long it took Waterford to beat Kilkenny or how hard it took the Lions took just to draw with New Zealand. Kildare have one when it comes to Dublin. One line jokes responses to my messages are are just deflecting the truth of what I say. Facts are facts.
Outside Meath no team has beaten Dublin in leinster with a leinster manager in 35 years eg Eugene McGee with Offaly in 82
Outside Meath no team in leinster has beaten Dublin with a manager from their own county since 1981 when Laois defeated with a Laois man.
Kildare have only beaten Dublin in 1 leinster final in over 90 years.
The facts tell the truth. Dublin are the most difficult opponent to beat in Gaelic football. And any team that has done that by and large had a very special group of players. Kildare dont take the fight to Dublin traditionally or in recent times. Remeber their last 3 defeats where hammeringshe ( 11 points, 15 points and 22 points defeat margins ) and 2 of them where record defeats in Kildare history. Atop of Kildare appalling record in Croker. Loss to Galway this year and to Clare and Westmeath last year in Croker. I think they lost well over 20 of their last 30 matchs in Croke Park.
All the above are facts.I wonder will anybody address these facts are just deflect attention with one line quips.
Even this board is a reflection of Kildare mentality. If there is a negative comment to be made about Meath the kildare fans are always in first with a putdown. It happens over and over again. When it comes to Dublin and negative comments they are nowhere to be seen. It's similar to Kildares teams . They just don't have the belief in a way are afraid of Dublin.
I would love to see Kildare win on Sunday for the sake of leinster football. ( I doubt any Kildare supporter would say the same about Meath their hatred and jealousy towards would Meath mean they want Dublin to win). But I have watched Kildare v Dublin for 30 years the fact is with the exception of 98 and for half of a game in 2000. Kildare dont take the fight to Dublin. You have to take the fight to them. In front of hill 16 the Dubs are always incredibly hard to beat and this is their greatest team. For the sake of leinster I hope the lilies win. But Dublin do have kildare in a mental straight jacket. Even their supporters have very little faith when they play Dublin." My good man nobody knows more about Kildare's past failures or fleeting successes than a Kildare fan. We've been there and suffered/celebrated them all down the years. We don't need anybody to lay out history for us. But I will point out, THIS Kildare panel haven't been to a Leinster final and they haven't yet played in THIS year's final yet so anything that's happened in the past is exactly that, in the past. It bares no relevance to what is going to happen on Sunday. These are really good players who are here on merit and have come up through the levels beating Dublin teams so a blue shirt won't scare them. As for your comments about Kildare supporters, you would be a fool to not acknowledge that Dublin are favourites. But we are exactly that, supporters, and we'll be there making noise and cheering on our team. I have a lot of faith we might surprise a few people. Judging everyone on the past is a waste of time, it won't affect what happens on Sunday.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/07/2017 15:56:19
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Judging everyone on the past is a waste of time, it won't affect what happens on Sunday.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts:213 - 11/07/2017
Can't agree with that, of course we have to use the past as a way to measure the future. Meath have a great tradition and history of success.
Sure isn't that why they bet us a few weeks ago?
if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 11/07/2017 16:16:17
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Alot of nonsense in this thread Dublin to win by 9 plus
Hunter077 (Roscommon) - Posts: 52 - 11/07/2017 16:24:30
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Listen I hope you beat Dublin on Sunday and at least put it up to them for the sake of the leinster championship. You do have some exciting young talent some of the best Kildare have ever produced eg Doyle Kelly 2 Flynn and Feehily. There is potential. But to say psychology or mentality or past results have no impact I think is ludicrous. The fact is my own county Meath the players have had bad experiences at underage and senior level in therror Meath jersey. Until McEntee sorts this out Meath are going nowhere. One of the reasons Kildare hammered Meath is because of PAST games at underage level between both counties which Kildare won in recent years.
Why did it take Waterford so long and so hard to beat Kilkenny? Kilkenny always believe they could beat Waterford Waterford had to deal with the weight of history. Kildare also do when it comes to Dublin.
The fact is my own county and players have a very poor recent record v Dublin. McEntee has allot of work to sort this out. We have done it before in 1947 1964 and 1986 come from nowhere after years of defeats to Dublin. But it will take time again. It is not easy for county to break a bad record against another.
I know Kildare had a few wins in the lates 60s. (But this was before Heffos Dublin. And Heffos Dublin hill 16 etc has been a different more sucessful county since 1974) Yes you gave a couple of good performances in early 90s v Dublin along with 98 2000 victories. But by and large kildares record for nearly 100 years has been dreadful v Dublin. So has most counties. But if you want to be sucessful you have to beat them. Which county has the most successful record v Dublin? Meath and Kerry. The most sucessful Gaelic football counties along with Dublin in the last 70 years. The reason because they defeated Dublin. It's linked. Beat Dublin you will win titles. It been the same story since the beginning of the GAA.
I just don't see intensity like Kildare in 97 and 98 v Meath. They were brillant on both years. In 2010 quater final Kildare put on exhibition of football in the second half. Even this year the first game in the league the intensity from Kildare was unreal. 2 weeks earlier v Dublins 3rd team the same group of players showed no fight or intensity. When Meeth play Kildare there is a bite in thr game. When Meath played Dublin in the heyday of the 40s 50s 70s 80s and 90s there was a edge to the game. There was a tense atmosphere in the field and in the stands. When kildare play Dublin it's too polite. They don't tear into them the way they do when they face the green and gold of Meath.
The fact Meath in our last 2 games v Dublin and longer it's all gone to polite. We are not bringing the intensity to Dublin ourselves. So we are in the same boat.the different is Kildare have potentially a golden generation. If kildare don't win an least 2 leinsters and make a push for Sam Maguire it would be waste of potential. To do that you have to bring the dogs of war. Bring the intensity. Get stuck into the. I hope we see that on Sunday for the sake of the leinster championship. A Kildare win would be wonderful for Kildare but would be a lifesaver for the leinster championship and give counties like Meath Westmeath Offaly Louth great hope.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 11/07/2017 18:06:40
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Replying To Hunter077: "Alot of nonsense in this thread Dublin to win by 9 plus" Everyone is entitled to their opinion, Hunter077. Congrats on your Connacht final win. Great performance by Roscommon. This time last week few people would have given Roscommon any chance of beating Galway. Obviously the Roscommon and management didn't think that they had no chance and similarly the Kildare team and management won't either.
lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 2987 - 11/07/2017 18:29:29
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Replying To Hunter077: "Alot of nonsense in this thread Dublin to win by 9 plus" That's what they said about Galway last week! Don't let us keep you if it's such nonsense.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/07/2017 18:47:26
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Replying To if_in_doubt: "Judging everyone on the past is a waste of time, it won't affect what happens on Sunday.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts:213 - 11/07/2017
Can't agree with that, of course we have to use the past as a way to measure the future. Meath have a great tradition and history of success.
Sure isn't that why they bet us a few weeks ago?" You can use history to measure the future yeah, but not influence it i.e. next Sunday. I think our Meath friend is feeling left out.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/07/2017 18:50:33
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Have to say getting really excited about Sundays game the Dubs are the bench mark lets hope we leave no regrets on the field.
Kildare can learn an awful lot from Sundays match.
cracker95 (Kildare) - Posts: 46 - 11/07/2017 19:44:27
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Replying To beir_bua: "So the Furlong 1949 thesis is that Kildare raise their game against Meath because we "hate Meath so much because of jealousy and begrudgery" but we lose our nerve and go into our shells against Dublin?
Speaking as someone who lives on the Kildare/Meath border that is nonsense. There is a keen rivalry with Meath around Johnstownbridge, Kilcock and parts of Carbury and Maynooth but it doesn't permeate throughout the county. In my lifetime Laois were always the biggest rivals in league and championship. There has always been rivalry with our other neighbours like Meath. Offaly, Wicklow, Dublin and Carlow but none of those clashes ever consistently stirred the same bile and bitterness that a Kildare/Laois clash could.
This idea that Kildare don't show any fight against Dublin is clearly nonsense too. You are correct in saying that results wise our record against Meath is better than our record against Dublin. However there is a simple explanation for that: Dublin have had better teams than Meath for most of their history. Kildare victories against Dublin are sadly thin on the ground but there have been many occasions over the last thirty years where Kildare have put it up to them. 2011 when Dublin needed a very debatable free in the last minute to beat Kildare. There was only a kick of a ball between the teams in the 2009 and 2002 Leinster Finals. Kildare were unlucky in the drawn match in 1994 and in the 1991 League Final when Vinnie Murphy kicked a fluke of a goal.
Kildare didn't lose any of those games mentioned above because they fear Dublin. They lost because for most of that period Dublin had better players. Kildare had some good players in the late sixties and early seventies and beat Dublin in 66, 69 and 72. That team was unfortunate to be around at the same time as the great Offaly team of Willie Bryan, Tony McTague and Eugene Mulligan. Kildare's lack of success since the 1920s has more to do with not producing enough quality teams than it has to do with any perceived mental weakness or inferiority complex." 100% agree with all your points.
I am really looking forward to the Final Furlong! Roll on Sunday.
St.Conleth (Kildare) - Posts: 1700 - 11/07/2017 20:07:48
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Listen good luck on Sunday. You would be surprised how many Meath supporters would love to see kildare beat Dublin on Sunday. For us Dublin is the real enemy always will be. Anytime Kildare beats Dublin it's a great day for Kildare but even greater day for leinster football. For the sake of province I hope you really put it up to them..
But I still stand by what I say Kildare when they play Meath they are like 15 bulls charging at the green and gold . Games like in 97 98 03 2010 2011 2017. But when it's come to Dublin Kildare are more meeker in the tackle submissive. Listen Meath are in the same boat. We no longer bring the intensity v Dublin . We are beaten in our heads even before we play the game v Dublin now. The two last performances v Dublin in 14 and 16 prove that. We used bring the dogs of war v Dublin. Not anymore. That's what you have to do . To beat Dublin is very difficult thing. It takes a special group of players . Kildare have huge potential and some serious young talent. But they have do what Glenn Ryan and co in 98. I remeber that game. Ryan got an easy enough point I think to win the game. Near the end. But you couls see from determination that he was almost saging your not going to bully us anymore Dublin. That's what Ryan Dalton and McCreery and Earley did. That's what the current crop have to do. But if they do what they did in the Byrne cup v Dublins third team and in their few outings in Croker ( Dublin Kerry Clare Gakway Westmeath) it will be another 15, 20 point mauling.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 11/07/2017 22:24:32
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To beat a or topple a Dublin or kerry it usually take three attempts. It's not always the case. But allot of the time it is. A teams first attempt they put up to Dublin but are to inexperienced fall short. The second attempt they throw the kitchen sink, but still fall short. And final third attempt it like a team have to do it it's now or never . And they beat the Dubs. Ulster teams have a record of beating on the first go. Eg Donegal 92 Derry 93 Down 94 Armagh 02 . But for the rest it takes 3. Here are examples below to explain what I mean. That it will probaly Kildare three attempts to beat Dublin. First this year next year and a win finally in 2020 2021. It would be unusual for a team to come from nowhere and beat the Dubs. Only other example would be Meath in 1964 and 1994.
Offaly v Dublin
1978 First attempt decent effort
1979 Played brilliantly should have won lost
1980 Finaly beat the Dubs.
Meath v Dublin
1983 A good attempt but inexperienced
1984 Expected to really test Dublin. Lose the game after gallant effort
1986 It was now or never. If Meath lost Boylan could have left. That team would fell apart. They won. The rest is history
Kildare V Dublin
1993 Good attempt
1994 Again fall short with Dwyer leaving it's feels like chance gone
1998 Dwyer back its now or never and Ryan and co do it at last
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 11/07/2017 22:37:50
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Replying To Furlong1949: "Listen good luck on Sunday. You would be surprised how many Meath supporters would love to see kildare beat Dublin on Sunday. For us Dublin is the real enemy always will be. Anytime Kildare beats Dublin it's a great day for Kildare but even greater day for leinster football. For the sake of province I hope you really put it up to them..
But I still stand by what I say Kildare when they play Meath they are like 15 bulls charging at the green and gold . Games like in 97 98 03 2010 2011 2017. But when it's come to Dublin Kildare are more meeker in the tackle submissive. Listen Meath are in the same boat. We no longer bring the intensity v Dublin . We are beaten in our heads even before we play the game v Dublin now. The two last performances v Dublin in 14 and 16 prove that. We used bring the dogs of war v Dublin. Not anymore. That's what you have to do . To beat Dublin is very difficult thing. It takes a special group of players . Kildare have huge potential and some serious young talent. But they have do what Glenn Ryan and co in 98. I remeber that game. Ryan got an easy enough point I think to win the game. Near the end. But you couls see from determination that he was almost saging your not going to bully us anymore Dublin. That's what Ryan Dalton and McCreery and Earley did. That's what the current crop have to do. But if they do what they did in the Byrne cup v Dublins third team and in their few outings in Croker ( Dublin Kerry Clare Gakway Westmeath) it will be another 15, 20 point mauling." Comparing an O'Byrne Cup final in January to a Leinster Final in July is like comparing apples and oranges. Of course no team is going to play both games with equal intensity. Neither will Dublin. But I think you have made your thoughts clear at this stage.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/07/2017 22:40:18
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Other examples of a team needing three attempts
Offaly v Kerry
1980 Kerry wallop Offaly
1981 Kerry beat Offaly. But Offaly play better. They learn more
1982 At the third attempt Offaly beat Kerry and stop the five in a row
Galway hurlers
1985 Galway lose to Offaly in the final
1986 Again Galway lose to Cork
1987 Its now or never Galway beat the cats the rest is history
Armagh
1999 Armagh lose to Meath in semi final
2000 Armagh lose the semi final to Kerry. They are learning all the time
2002 Armagh beat Dublin in the semi final and Kerry in the final
Its not always the case that it takes three times for a team to make the breakthrough. But most teams go through a learning experience and learn from losing matchs. For Kildare to win on Sunday it would be one of the greatest leinster finals wins ever. Would mean Dublin are declining. But also that Kildare will become a serious force and potential All a Ireland champions in the coming years. More then likely it will take a couple of attempts. If Kildare can put it up to Dublin it would be a great start. But another 15, 20 point mauling would be a major setback. Adding to the other massive defeats v Dublin and 7 goal fiasco v Kerry.
My own county Meath have still not go over 2014 hammering to Dublin. O Dowd was finished after that. His team never really performed after that. And McEntee is still trying to get the Meath teams mentality back. That leinster final hammering in 2014 ( which was Meaths worst defeat to Dublin since the 1930s they were beaten before half time ) had a very bad impact on that team. Hopefully Kildare do the business on Sunday. It could change everything for leinster football. The future of leinster football.is hanging by a thread.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 11/07/2017 22:57:46
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I will finish with this . I hope you win on Saturday. But I don't get the feeling from Kildare fans and teams the feeling you get from Meath v Dublin Galway v Mayo Kilkenny v Tipp Tyrone v Armagh. The bite the edge . Listen it's no longer between Meach and Dublin. Meath and Dublin is just a nostalgia trip. Memories of great battles in the past. But to beat Dublin you need to bring a battle driven team to the edge. This Kildare team are seriously talented group. Feehily can become the best midfielder in Ireland. I would say Doyle is already one of the best centre backs. Kelly is the best centre forward since Tompkins Kildare have produced. While the 2 Flynn and McCormack are as good as inside forward Kildare ever produced. Future all stars. O Neill is an impressive guy. But do they have what the lowrys and O Connors had with Offaly in the 80s. What O Rourke and Lyons Giles and Gerathy had in the 90s. What Ryan and Dalton had in the 90s. All willing to go through brick walls to beat Dublin. Dwyer has managered 3 teams to beat Dublina in leinster Paudi O Se managed the only other victory over Dublin in leinster in 30 years. Outside Mesth in last 30 years only kerry men have leinster teams to victory over Dublin. Kerry men like Dwyer was obsessed with Dublin . Only Sean Boylan has beaten Dublin more. It's that drive you need to topple . That drive and passion that has driven Meath football in the past. Mick Lyons said he was willing to put us life on the line to beat Dublin. I know people will twist this say Lyons did this or that. But still it is a statement that sums the Meath teams of 80s and 90s. Before the leinster final in 1964. Three Quinn brothers were on their team. Their father was on his deathbed. The three brothers did not think they should play. Their father told them go outo and beat Dublin. All three played in the final And Meath produced Meaths greatst performance ever in a leinster final. That's what it meant to Meath in the past. It does not anymore. We have lost that. why that's another story. But the fact is its your turn Kildare it's your turn to take the v fight Dublin yoy have the players. Now it all about the mentality the intensity. Play with the intensity you always bring to playing Meath. And your more then half way to winning on Sunday.
Good luck on Sunday. I hope you beat them. If you do I will go for a few pints in Maynooth or Kilcock Sunday night. Kildare will be the place to be if you win the title on Sunday.
Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 1067 - 11/07/2017 23:49:43
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I think there's something wrong with my phone. My link to HoganStand keeps directing me to something called Furlong1949.com.
KildareKelly (Kildare) - Posts: 593 - 11/07/2017 23:53:02
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Furlong, Christ almighty. Your fingers must be on fire.
Some boy for one boy I tell ya!
waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 11/07/2017 23:54:13
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