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Replying To Whammo86: "A losing provincial SF has a harder qualifier draw than a losing QF.
If they lose their first qualifier match they are out whereas a losing provincial quarter finalist can lose their first qualifier match but still then return at the same round as a losing provincial Semi-finalist.
It doesn't make sense.
It's an insurmountable flaw in the specifics of your proposal.
There are other better ways to guarantee teams 3 matches and to even out provincial imbalances." The teams that lose in the unseeded Qual Rd 1 (incl various weak teams) remain apart in seeded Qual Rd 1.5 against strong teams (a mix of beaten in SFs and QFs based on NFL ranking). While I have 16 losers in 1.5 and 8 Rd 1 winners in Rd 2 - your alternative plan here is the straight 8 entry to Rd 2 is based on Prov wins (good as well).
The way I see your 24 not in Prov Finals -
4 Prelim losers to Qual 1; Up to 4 SF losers coming from Prelim Rd to Qual 2; Complete the 8 byes to Qual 2 from one-win Prov teams with highest NFL ranking.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/11/2016 17:08:55
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Also, with the 4x4 plan, the 16-team Rd 1 composition is not fully known until after the Prov SFs.
My Treble Chance 2x16 has no such waiting around - as Rd 1.5 is a new layer baked in and it allows to add a Champs Rd as well.
Prov Finals with Rd 1.5, Champs Playoffs with Rd 2, 12-team Rd 3 alone, AI QFs.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/11/2016 17:16:17
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Also, with the 4x4 plan, the 16-team Rd 1 composition is not fully known until after the Prov SFs.
My Treble Chance 2x16 has no such waiting around - as Rd 1.5 is a new layer baked in and it allows to add a Champs Rd as well.
Prov Finals with Rd 1.5, Champs Playoffs with Rd 2, 12-team Rd 3 alone, AI QFs.
omahant (USA)
We have to think of the club championships as well. Some counties have problems that players leave for America after provincial knockout when there's a few weeks before qualifier 1 of 4. Players are better placed to answer this. It might be seen more worthwhile training for a shorter qualifying system held on back-to-back weekends that leads to a group stage.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 19/11/2016 18:40:00
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Replying To omahant: "Also, with the 4x4 plan, the 16-team Rd 1 composition is not fully known until after the Prov SFs.
My Treble Chance 2x16 has no such waiting around - as Rd 1.5 is a new layer baked in and it allows to add a Champs Rd as well.
Prov Finals with Rd 1.5, Champs Playoffs with Rd 2, 12-team Rd 3 alone, AI QFs." That problem is simply solved.
Guarantee Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists a place in round 2.
In the new proposal Leinster quarterfinals are only due to be completed by week 21. Very easy to have the Munster and Connacht semifinals completed by that week also.
That's less waiting around than teams are currently dealing with.
Win 2 rounds you're into the All Ireland series, get a minimum of 3 more games and are back to playing big matches in the main competition rather than a losers stream.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 20/11/2016 12:32:15
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If I had my way though I'd still love the league to play a role.
Div 1 of 12 teams
Div 2 North of 10
Div 2 South of 10
9 rounds of league before provincial championship.
2 rounds of league during the provincial series.
Provincial champions, plus next 3 best from division 1, plus division 2 champion qualifies for the All Ireland quarterfinals.
11 and 12th in division 1 automatically relegated
9th and 10th go into a relegation playoff.
In division 2 top 2 from each section go into division 2 semifinals. Section winners get home advantage. Division 2 finalists get promoted.
3rd and 4th place from each section can still get promoted. They play 1 round, winners go on to play division 2 losing semi-finalists. Winners of that game go on to play the 9th or 10th best team from division 1 for promotion.
Let's say for its 1st season division 1 gets decided by championship quarter-finalists plus next 4 best teams from the league. Next season you'd be looking at the following 3 sections:
Division 1
Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tipperary, Donegal, Tyrone, Clare, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork
Division 2 North
Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh, Louth, Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Meath
Division 2 South
Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, London, Offaly, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, London, Laois
The sections could be switched so that after 2 seasons it gets divided East and West, for variety.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 20/11/2016 13:18:55
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The B Championship suggested by the GAA would have had qualifiers after the provincial semi-finals.
There are options. The first two qualifying rounds as they are can run in parallel to provincial semi-finals and finals. Each round could simply have the suggested seeding of current championship wins and league placing.
Hurling provincial quarter-final losers have to wait for the semi-finals to be played. There hasn't been too many complaints. It does provide time for club championships within those counties.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 20/11/2016 13:36:46
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Replying To Whammo86: "That problem is simply solved.
Guarantee Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists a place in round 2.
In the new proposal Leinster quarterfinals are only due to be completed by week 21. Very easy to have the Munster and Connacht semifinals completed by that week also.
That's less waiting around than teams are currently dealing with.
Win 2 rounds you're into the All Ireland series, get a minimum of 3 more games and are back to playing big matches in the main competition rather than a losers stream." Sometimes I wonder if the problem is me or the details in this idea - You stated earlirr that 10 teams won a Prov match in the QF or Prelim Rds - 8 of 10 get a bye to Rd 2 - the 2 losing out is only known after the SFs ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/11/2016 16:25:30
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Replying To legendzxix: "The B Championship suggested by the GAA would have had qualifiers after the provincial semi-finals.
There are options. The first two qualifying rounds as they are can run in parallel to provincial semi-finals and finals. Each round could simply have the suggested seeding of current championship wins and league placing.
Hurling provincial quarter-final losers have to wait for the semi-finals to be played. There hasn't been too many complaints. It does provide time for club championships within those counties." You can't play 1st Qual Rd 16 parallel with Prov SFs based on Prov wins - as SF results determine 1st Rd 16.
In Treble Chance, I have Rd 1 same and as unfair as now -BUT with the safety net that nobody is KO'd.
I have SF 16 concurrent with 1st Qual Rd 16 - 8 winners in each stream advance with guarantee of entry to at least Qual Rd 2 -
8 SF losers joining 8 1st Rd Qual losers in Rd 1.5 bridges Prov imbalance and can be played concurrently with Prov Finals.
After 8 Rd 1.5 losers eliminated- 20-team Open Draw Rd 2 (mouthwatering) is played with 2-chance 4-team Prov Champs Rd.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/11/2016 17:19:50
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Replying To Whammo86: "If I had my way though I'd still love the league to play a role.
Div 1 of 12 teams
Div 2 North of 10
Div 2 South of 10
9 rounds of league before provincial championship.
2 rounds of league during the provincial series.
Provincial champions, plus next 3 best from division 1, plus division 2 champion qualifies for the All Ireland quarterfinals.
11 and 12th in division 1 automatically relegated
9th and 10th go into a relegation playoff.
In division 2 top 2 from each section go into division 2 semifinals. Section winners get home advantage. Division 2 finalists get promoted.
3rd and 4th place from each section can still get promoted. They play 1 round, winners go on to play division 2 losing semi-finalists. Winners of that game go on to play the 9th or 10th best team from division 1 for promotion.
Let's say for its 1st season division 1 gets decided by championship quarter-finalists plus next 4 best teams from the league. Next season you'd be looking at the following 3 sections:
Division 1
Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tipperary, Donegal, Tyrone, Clare, Galway, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork
Division 2 North
Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh, Louth, Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Meath
Division 2 South
Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, London, Offaly, Wexford, Waterford, Limerick, London, Laois
The sections could be switched so that after 2 seasons it gets divided East and West, for variety." I generally like this except different promo/ rela pairings -
2nd Div 4ths host 1st Div 9 and 10.
2nd Div SF losers host 2 winners above (2 winners go or stay up).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/11/2016 17:32:31
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Replying To omahant: "Sometimes I wonder if the problem is me or the details in this idea - You stated earlirr that 10 teams won a Prov match in the QF or Prelim Rds - 8 of 10 get a bye to Rd 2 - the 2 losing out is only known after the SFs ?" You can have the 4 Ulster and Leinster semi finalists be guaranteed 4 of the byes. 4 of the other 6 byes go to Ulster/Leinster quarter-finalists and Connacht/Munster semi-finalists who have won a match.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 20/11/2016 17:36:11
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Replying To omahant: "I generally like this except different promo/ rela pairings -
2nd Div 4ths host 1st Div 9 and 10.
2nd Div SF losers host 2 winners above (2 winners go or stay up)." The way I do it. Division 2 is also 11 weeks long.
2 Promoted (had to finish top 2 in their section) another 2 make the promotion playoff (had to finish top 4 in their section)
If one section is harder than the other it doesn't matter, the playoffs decide the best 2 and the 3rd and 4th best teams.
I really think as a supporter of Antrim I'd really like this format. They get regular games against a better standard of opponent. I think players could buy in to this sort of season sooner.
The top division 2 teams have a meaningful competition to win and also qualify for the All Ireland series.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 20/11/2016 19:29:51
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Replying To Whammo86: "The way I do it. Division 2 is also 11 weeks long.
2 Promoted (had to finish top 2 in their section) another 2 make the promotion playoff (had to finish top 4 in their section)
If one section is harder than the other it doesn't matter, the playoffs decide the best 2 and the 3rd and 4th best teams.
I really think as a supporter of Antrim I'd really like this format. They get regular games against a better standard of opponent. I think players could buy in to this sort of season sooner.
The top division 2 teams have a meaningful competition to win and also qualify for the All Ireland series." Fair enough - and I made an error forgetting the 2nd Div 3rds - I should have -
2nd Div 4ths host 1st Div 9 and 10
2nd Div SF losers host 2nd Div 3rds
Latter 2 winners host Former 2 winners for Div 1 status.
But I see you limit everyone to 12 league matches (11+1, or 9+3).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/11/2016 23:34:56
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Replying To Whammo86: "The way I do it. Division 2 is also 11 weeks long.
2 Promoted (had to finish top 2 in their section) another 2 make the promotion playoff (had to finish top 4 in their section)
If one section is harder than the other it doesn't matter, the playoffs decide the best 2 and the 3rd and 4th best teams.
I really think as a supporter of Antrim I'd really like this format. They get regular games against a better standard of opponent. I think players could buy in to this sort of season sooner.
The top division 2 teams have a meaningful competition to win and also qualify for the All Ireland series." Fair enough - and I made an error forgetting the 2nd Div 3rds - I should have -
2nd Div 4ths host 1st Div 9 and 10
2nd Div SF losers host 2nd Div 3rds
Latter 2 winners host Former 2 winners for Div 1 status.
But I see you limit everyone to 12 league matches (11+1, or 9+3).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 20/11/2016 23:51:28
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To Whammo86 -
Some time ago, you had another AIC idea - Put 32 teams in an Open Draw over 3 rds to determine 4 teams to join 4 Prov Champs in AI QFs (or bye to AI SFs, if a team earns two berths).
What do you think of giving 16 teams from Lein/Uls QFs byes to 24-team Open Rd 2.
Then play Rds 2 and 3 to get 6 teams to join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs (after a Champs Playoff Rd, with no back door) ?
More AI QF berths from the Open counters Prov imbalance, but keeps the latter in diluted form.
Prov and Open rds could alternate to keep both relevant.
While the Qualifiers (or new Open Draw) have gone stale, I think it is due to unattractive pairings.
All Div 1 pairings, local and national, can develop into rivralries - but Div 4 teams are best paired with their neighbors.
The draw rules for each rd could be tailored accordingly - a blend of Regional, Seeded, InterProv and Open Draws.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 21/11/2016 00:35:31
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....or tie Qualifiers to the Open above as well (ensures 3-match min for all).....
24 teams need 3 Open wins (Rds 2, 3, 4) to determine 3 Open Rd 4 winners.
8 Open Rd 1 losers to 8-team Qual Rd 1, latter played concurrently with 24-team Open Rd 2.
Qual Rds 2, 3, 4 with team quantities of 16, 14, 10 - so 5 Qual Rd 4 winners.
AI Series - 12 teams - as 3 Open and 5 Qualifier teams join 4 Prov Champs.
4 teams get byes to AI QFs - 'doubled up' Prov Champs - and if less than 4, highest NFL-ranked.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 21/11/2016 00:59:24
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Replying To omahant: "....or tie Qualifiers to the Open above as well (ensures 3-match min for all).....
24 teams need 3 Open wins (Rds 2, 3, 4) to determine 3 Open Rd 4 winners.
8 Open Rd 1 losers to 8-team Qual Rd 1, latter played concurrently with 24-team Open Rd 2.
Qual Rds 2, 3, 4 with team quantities of 16, 14, 10 - so 5 Qual Rd 4 winners.
AI Series - 12 teams - as 3 Open and 5 Qualifier teams join 4 Prov Champs.
4 teams get byes to AI QFs - 'doubled up' Prov Champs - and if less than 4, highest NFL-ranked." I think it's getting too convoluted again.
The open draw 3 rounds down to 4 teams is very simple.
The provincial championships are simple.
I think merging the 2 streams is fairly straightforward also.
I think it's better than the qualifiers because the open draw isn't a secondary competition. It's a parallel competition.
I also disagree with you about weak teams need to be kept apart from the strongest teams.
As a young Antrim fan I'd have loved to have gone see Antrim vs Kerry or Galway or Dublin or Meath in an open draw round 1. Those would be games to inspire me to want to play county football.
I don't really understand why people are so precious about having teams play certain teams.
The novelty of some of the fixtures an open draw would throw up could be interesting for people to show up to.
The rounds could be played on big weekends to help promote them.
First round May Bank Holiday, 2nd round June Bank holiday.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 21/11/2016 08:54:32
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How about this - back to the 4x4 idea-
24 Non-Prov Final teams in 8 groups of 3 (3 seed loser buckets of 8 Prov SFs, 8 Lein/Uls QFs and 8 Others).
There is less waiting around as two non-SF teams play 1st game concurrent with the Prov SFs;
Then Losing SF v Loser of 1st game (potentially sets up 'all to play for' deciding 3rd game, played concurrent with Prov Finals).
Bake a Prov Final into each of the 4 groups.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 21/11/2016 14:02:31
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How about winter well for an idea? ;)
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 21/11/2016 18:36:59
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Omahant - how is a convoluted qualifying system going to reinvigorate the qualifiers?
Whammo86 - do you think counties missing out on 4 groups of 4 would reevaluate the merits of a second championship guaranteeing a group stage spot in the following year?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 21/11/2016 21:29:42
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Replying To legendzxix: "Omahant - how is a convoluted qualifying system going to reinvigorate the qualifiers?
Whammo86 - do you think counties missing out on 4 groups of 4 would reevaluate the merits of a second championship guaranteeing a group stage spot in the following year?" Potentially, I'm not sure. It'd have more chance of success than the TMC. By winning it you'd get 3 games the following season against top teams. That's a decent carrot to be offered.
I think it would very much depend on the success of the group stage. It'd depend on how much of a buy in factor there'd be from players.
I think what's one of the best things about this system potentially is that it could move the focus of teams ambitions away from the league.
Qualifying for the last 16 and playing a number of top quality championship games at the height of the summer would be much more important than league performance.
The last 16 should be achievable for almost every team in the country. Even London reached a Connacht final not so long ago.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 21/11/2016 22:35:02
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