National Forum

Qualifier Rd 1.5 - for a level playing field ?

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Many sporting tournaments worldwide have qualifying stages for the main tournament. The All-Ireland series is no different. A group stage will make a clear distinction from all rounds leading to that stage.

A standard has to be set for qualifying for the main event. 16 teams seems the most the All-Ireland series can expand to.

If the All-Ireland series featured 4 groups of 4 for a number of years. Those not involved will reevaluate the merits of a second championship offering guaranteed group stage place in the following year."
I suppose 16 is a good number - and I can see it encouraging the lower 16 to have a similar 4x4 set up - or why don't the stronger half allow themselves to be a little 'handicapped' and play in groups a little stronger, and the weaker half get an easier path to the Sam KO in the same year. Say, put 3 teams from NFL Divs 1 & 2 into each of 5 groups (one remaining plus 4 Div 3 teams complete those groups); draw 3x4 from remaining 12 teams. Top two to Rd of 16.
My 'Treble Chance' quasi-KO goes from 32 (2x16) to 24 to 14 to 8, which I also think works well as all get a 3-match minimum (incl Prov stream).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 10/11/2016 17:30:07    1933398

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Replying To omahant:  "I suppose 16 is a good number - and I can see it encouraging the lower 16 to have a similar 4x4 set up - or why don't the stronger half allow themselves to be a little 'handicapped' and play in groups a little stronger, and the weaker half get an easier path to the Sam KO in the same year. Say, put 3 teams from NFL Divs 1 & 2 into each of 5 groups (one remaining plus 4 Div 3 teams complete those groups); draw 3x4 from remaining 12 teams. Top two to Rd of 16.
My 'Treble Chance' quasi-KO goes from 32 (2x16) to 24 to 14 to 8, which I also think works well as all get a 3-match minimum (incl Prov stream)."
I think the Limerick hurling championship had some format that had strong teams and lesser teams in separate groups. They reverted back to conventional groups.

Essentially if 4 groups of 4 was in place for a number of years, those missing might be encouraged to enter a second championship of similar format, knockout or double elimination format like that used in the Christy Ring Cup.

Suggested qualification for the top 16 is:
8 provincial finalists.
8 qualifier round 2 winners.

If a second championship was agreed, suggested qualification for the top 16 is similar to the McGuinness-Kelly idea:
8 provincial finalists.
All-Ireland winner from previous year.
Second championship winner from previous year.
6 to 8 places after two qualifying rounds held on back to back weekends, same weekends as provincial finals.

6 places available (10 already qualified): 22 teams to 6 after two qualifying rounds.
7 places available (9 already qualified): 23 teams to 7 after two qualifying rounds.
8 places available (8 already qualified): 24 teams to 8 after two qualifying rounds.

* 8, 9 or 10 already qualified for the group stage depends on All-Ireland winner and second championship winner making the provincial finals or not.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 10/11/2016 18:36:14    1933417

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I actually really like the 4 by 4 groups idea, so the next one is just me throwing another one out there.

12 team group stage. 3 groups of 4. Top 2 from each group into knockout rounds. 6 teams, 2 best group winners get byes to the semifinals. Makes all the games interesting. Teams have to play attacking football to get the byes. The best group winner is guaranteed to avoid the other 2 group winners in the semifinals.

Qualifiers round 1 would feature 8 teams (1Ulster which should be seeded, 3Leinster, 2 each from Connacht and Munster)

Qualifier round 2 Ulster & Leinster quarter-finalists, Munster & Connacht semi-finalists, 4 round 1 winners.

Qualifier round 3, 8 remaining non provincial champions plus 8 round 2 winners.

Provincial finalists guaranteed a home qualifier.

Group stage Provincial champions guaranteed 2 home group games. Provincial champions qualifying get preference over other teams to receive a second home game.

It'd be almost completely fair between provinces.

The group stages would be better average quality without being too elitist. The excitement of the chase for the bye spots could be interesting. Could introduce a bonus point system, so that teams are less benefited by 1 blowout result.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 11/11/2016 20:34:38    1933686

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Despite the imbalance of numbers in provinces, all provincial champions should be treated the same resulting in either 1 or 2 in each group.

If they were 8 teams in each province, two wins would see any team into a provincial final. I think preliminary round winners who win their quarter-final as well but lose their semi-final should have some advantage in the qualifiers even if it's guaranteed home advantage at the very least.

In my suggesed qualifying format of 6 from 22, 7 from 23 or 8 from 24 after two rounds, teams who enter the qualifiers after two wins in their provincial championship should have priority on any byes from the first qualifying round.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 11/11/2016 22:26:11    1933704

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Despite the imbalance of numbers in provinces, all provincial champions should be treated the same resulting in either 1 or 2 in each group.

If they were 8 teams in each province, two wins would see any team into a provincial final. I think preliminary round winners who win their quarter-final as well but lose their semi-final should have some advantage in the qualifiers even if it's guaranteed home advantage at the very least.

In my suggesed qualifying format of 6 from 22, 7 from 23 or 8 from 24 after two rounds, teams who enter the qualifiers after two wins in their provincial championship should have priority on any byes from the first qualifying round."
As I say I really like your proposal.

Based on this year you'd have had the following:

Provincial champions Dublin, Tyrone, Kerry, Galway
Provincial runners up Westmeath, Donegal, Roscommon, Tipperary
Qualifiers Mayo, Cork, Clare, Derry, Sligo, Cavan, Longford, Kildare

That could be a very interesting tournament, I think by making the AI series larger, that the provincial imbalance is less of a factor. I would vote for this system over the GAA's proposal.

I was just throwing out another idea, one that gives a legitimate reward to teams that are more attacking and win well.

In my suggestion there'd be a group with 2 provincial champions, that'd be assigned by a draw. In their group they'd be guaranteed to avoid provincial runners up, it would keep the groups evenly matched. So if group A has 2 provincial champions, groups B and C would have 1 provincial champion plus 2 winners from qualifier matches involving provincial runners up.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 12/11/2016 07:48:31    1933724

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Replying To Whammo86:  "As I say I really like your proposal.

Based on this year you'd have had the following:

Provincial champions Dublin, Tyrone, Kerry, Galway
Provincial runners up Westmeath, Donegal, Roscommon, Tipperary
Qualifiers Mayo, Cork, Clare, Derry, Sligo, Cavan, Longford, Kildare

That could be a very interesting tournament, I think by making the AI series larger, that the provincial imbalance is less of a factor. I would vote for this system over the GAA's proposal.

I was just throwing out another idea, one that gives a legitimate reward to teams that are more attacking and win well.

In my suggestion there'd be a group with 2 provincial champions, that'd be assigned by a draw. In their group they'd be guaranteed to avoid provincial runners up, it would keep the groups evenly matched. So if group A has 2 provincial champions, groups B and C would have 1 provincial champion plus 2 winners from qualifier matches involving provincial runners up."
I see the merits of your suggestion as well.

4 groups of 4 is very straightforward though. People with a passing interest will easily identify with 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers making that stage of competition.

Some people find the A and B sides of the qualifiers confusing. They can't follow the stage the championship is at. That will affect crowds. The hurling had a phase 1 of non-provincial semi-finalists, a phase 2 of losing provincial semi-finalists and a phase 3 of phase 1 and phase 2 winners. People found that confusing and convoluted as well. The hurling is now straightforward round 1 and round 2 into quarter-finals.

I've entertained convoluted formats myself but it's clear the simpler the better e.g. seed qualifier draws based on league placing. Very little explaining needed.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 12/11/2016 10:41:57    1933736

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I see the merits of your suggestion as well.

4 groups of 4 is very straightforward though. People with a passing interest will easily identify with 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers making that stage of competition.

Some people find the A and B sides of the qualifiers confusing. They can't follow the stage the championship is at. That will affect crowds. The hurling had a phase 1 of non-provincial semi-finalists, a phase 2 of losing provincial semi-finalists and a phase 3 of phase 1 and phase 2 winners. People found that confusing and convoluted as well. The hurling is now straightforward round 1 and round 2 into quarter-finals.

I've entertained convoluted formats myself but it's clear the simpler the better e.g. seed qualifier draws based on league placing. Very little explaining needed."
Yeah you're right.

Have you submitted it, I think it'd have a chance.

It needs barely any change to the GAA's proposed calendar. Final qualifier round gets played alongside provincial finals.

6 rounds of fixtures are needed after provincial series, same as GAA's proposal.

Hurling could adopt something similar. Not sure what gets done about Galway though. Do they get a bye to the last 8 if they leave Leinster. Maybe play 1 qualifier round, with no second chance.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 12/11/2016 12:07:23    1933748

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So tell me please - what don't you like about 'Treble Chance' ?

Positives include - After arriving at Prov SF 16 and 1sr Rd Qual 16 - to avoid initial 8 eliminated - win either of two rds - Prov SF 16/ 1st Rd Qual 16 OR Qual Rd 1.5.
Everyone retains two chances regardless of what happens prior to Prov SFs - win, lose or bye.
To move from AI Last 24 to AI QFs - win Prov Champs Playoff Rd OR Qual Rd 3; OR win Qual Rds 2 AND 3.
Three match minimum due to two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn only ( say, no aggregate scores, a hammering followed by one point win, sets up extra time after 2nd leg).
You don't like a 3rd lchances limited to 8 teams - necessary to counter Prov imbalance ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 12/11/2016 16:12:41    1933777

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A lopsided GPA might work better -
1st idea - swap 4 top seeds in 4 groups with 4 4th seeds in the other groups (21 team KO).
2nd idea - merge lower half of Div 2 with Divs 3 and 4 - Draw 5 groups of 4 - and
Draw 3 strong groups of 4 from the remaining 12 teams.
21 teams to KO - Top 2 each plus 2 strong and 3 weak group wild cards - 3 2nds in strong groups join 8 group winners as byes.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 12/11/2016 16:34:08    1933780

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah you're right.

Have you submitted it, I think it'd have a chance.

It needs barely any change to the GAA's proposed calendar. Final qualifier round gets played alongside provincial finals.

6 rounds of fixtures are needed after provincial series, same as GAA's proposal.

Hurling could adopt something similar. Not sure what gets done about Galway though. Do they get a bye to the last 8 if they leave Leinster. Maybe play 1 qualifier round, with no second chance."
My advice for everyone is to submit a proposal through their club or county or contact the GPA. I submitted the idea to the GPA a few months ago. The GAA are suggesting 2 groups of 4. The GPA had suggested 8 groups of 4. My advice is a compromise of 4 groups of 4. We'll see in the next while what the GPA will come up with.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 12/11/2016 19:09:46    1933821

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah you're right.

Have you submitted it, I think it'd have a chance.

It needs barely any change to the GAA's proposed calendar. Final qualifier round gets played alongside provincial finals.

6 rounds of fixtures are needed after provincial series, same as GAA's proposal.

Hurling could adopt something similar. Not sure what gets done about Galway though. Do they get a bye to the last 8 if they leave Leinster. Maybe play 1 qualifier round, with no second chance."
The format is easily adaptable to hurling as well. Keep the main hurling championship structure as it is. Simply apply the following for 2 groups of 4 in the top 8:
4 provincial finalists.
4 qualifiers.

The suggested format again for football is:
8 provincial finalists.
8 qualifiers.

The groups in football and hurling can have similar setup:
Provincial finalists playing a game against each other in Croke Park e.g. Munster champions v Leinster runners-up.
Provincial winners having 2 home games against the qualifier counties in their group.
All other teams in the group having 1 home game each.

Point to note:
- Provincial finalists are guaranteed a game in Croke Park.
- Provincial winners are awarded 2 home games while their group opponents have 1 home game.
- The football quarter-finals onwards and hurling semi-finals onwards can be kept in Croke Park.
- It'll be up counties missing out to reevaluate the merits of a second championship.
- There is flexibility to reward second championship winners a place in the group stage of the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 12/11/2016 19:31:41    1933835

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Replying To omahant:  "So tell me please - what don't you like about 'Treble Chance' ?

Positives include - After arriving at Prov SF 16 and 1sr Rd Qual 16 - to avoid initial 8 eliminated - win either of two rds - Prov SF 16/ 1st Rd Qual 16 OR Qual Rd 1.5.
Everyone retains two chances regardless of what happens prior to Prov SFs - win, lose or bye.
To move from AI Last 24 to AI QFs - win Prov Champs Playoff Rd OR Qual Rd 3; OR win Qual Rds 2 AND 3.
Three match minimum due to two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn only ( say, no aggregate scores, a hammering followed by one point win, sets up extra time after 2nd leg).
You don't like a 3rd lchances limited to 8 teams - necessary to counter Prov imbalance ?"
Hey man.

I appreciate what you're trying to do.

Realistically a back door of the back door is not going to be popular.

I also really don't think a 2 legged Munster semifinal is ever going to happen.

In your system it is an advantage to get knocked out in a provincial quarter final as you get 2 chances to progress through the qualifiers.

It gives 3 guaranteed matches but other than that I think there are better systems for evening out the provinces.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 12/11/2016 23:49:06    1933883

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Hey man.

I appreciate what you're trying to do.

Realistically a back door of the back door is not going to be popular.

I also really don't think a 2 legged Munster semifinal is ever going to happen.

In your system it is an advantage to get knocked out in a provincial quarter final as you get 2 chances to progress through the qualifiers.

It gives 3 guaranteed matches but other than that I think there are better systems for evening out the provinces."
If we are left with the current qualifying system, with the removal of A and B sides, and the GAA's 2 groups of 4, the minimum I would suggest is seeding qualifier round 1 and 2 draws based on the number of current championship games won and secondly league placing.

Teams entering Qualifier Round 1 will have won 1 game or 0 games. Seed teams for this draw based first on those who won a game and then based on league placing. It will be an advantage for preliminary round winners in Ulster and Leinster who lose their quarter-final.

Teams entering Qualifier Round 2 will have won 2 games, 1 game or 0 games. Again seed teams for this draw firstly on number of games won and then based on league placing. It will be an advantage for teams who started in preliminary rounds and won 2 games.

It's a subtle way to try and give fairness within the accepted imbalanced provincial structure.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 13/11/2016 11:00:36    1933899

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So, in most prior years - one of the minnow 4 can get to a Muns Final when the Big 2 are on the same side of the draw.
In your plan, that minnow Finalist gets at least entry to Qual Rd 2 the following year and being a Muns seed.
There's not much value for a Carlow type team being seeded in Qual Rd 1 after a Lein Prelim win, as they face elimination and could draw a strong Uls team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 13/11/2016 16:11:41    1933943

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Replying To omahant:  "So, in most prior years - one of the minnow 4 can get to a Muns Final when the Big 2 are on the same side of the draw.
In your plan, that minnow Finalist gets at least entry to Qual Rd 2 the following year and being a Muns seed.
There's not much value for a Carlow type team being seeded in Qual Rd 1 after a Lein Prelim win, as they face elimination and could draw a strong Uls team."
There are 4 preliminary round matches. That leaves room for at least 4 strong teams based on league placing to be seeded as well. From your example Carlow would avoid the likes of Tyrone or Derry.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 13/11/2016 17:50:04    1933960

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GaryMc82 - Thanks for the comments. It takes some Maths aptitude to follow some of my thinking - other people have other skills that I don't have.
I can bring a horse to the water but can't make it drink.
In my post above - essentially, if a team gains entry to the AI QFs (say via Prov Champ), that is 1 berth (not earth shattering) - and if a team enters the last Qual Rd (they need one win, on avg half a chance of winning), I can this a 0.5 AI QF berth.
Currently, any team in the 1st Qual Rd 16 need 4 wins to get to the QFs - so I calc this as 1/2 multiplied 4 times or 1/16 or 0.0625.

Two good simple ideas I've seen on this site -
1) Keep existing two-stream structure, with only one change - the 6 losers in Lein/Uls SFs and Muns/Conn Finals neter at the Qual Rd 3 stage (by Whammo, and significantly address current imbalance - like Treble Chance)
2) Keep existing two-stream structure, with 8 Qual Rd winners joining Prov Finalists in 'Rd of 16' (simple, but does not address current imbalance).
omahant (USA) - Posts:881 - 08/11/2016 14:23:42

No I do get it, but sometimes the way posts are displayed on here makes it harder to read. I admire the debate here, It is really constructive.

I think the Ulster Championship needs to be seeded for future, based on National League places, as that plays a strong part in seeing really strong sides exit the Provincial and enter the early qualifier rounds.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 14/11/2016 09:15:55    1934058

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I think the Ulster Championship needs to be seeded for future, based on National League places, as that plays a strong part in seeing really strong sides exit the Provincial and enter the early qualifier rounds.

GaryMc82 (Derry)

Is the Leinster seeding more realistic? Reward provincial semi-finalists with a bye from the preliminary round of the following year. Optional: also seed semi-finalists to avoid each other in the quarter-final draw of the following year.

A seeded Ulster championship will see more teams of an even level enter the appropriate qualifying rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 14/11/2016 13:51:43    1934147

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Muns hurling has the same prob with Tipp needing to engage 3 rds, due to 'luck' of the draw

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 14/11/2016 14:26:43    1934158

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Would you consider the AI SFC fair, if it started with a symmetric 32 teams, moved to 24, before moving on to the AI Last 8 ?
32 teams to 24 - 16 losers from existing Prov SF 16 & 1st Qual Rd 16 play a 'common last chance' Rd of 16 Qual Rd 1.5 (from which, 8 losers are 1st eliminated from AI SFC) and play the latter concurrently with the Prov Finals;
Then, 24 teams to 8 - 4 Prov Champs enter a 'double chance' Playoff Rd, played concurrently with a 20-team Qual Rd 2;
6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in AI QFs.
Two-legged Prov SFs in Munster and Connacht ensures 32 teams play a minimum of 3 matches.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 15/11/2016 04:45:35    1934280

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Hey man.

I appreciate what you're trying to do.

Realistically a back door of the back door is not going to be popular.

I also really don't think a 2 legged Munster semifinal is ever going to happen.

In your system it is an advantage to get knocked out in a provincial quarter final as you get 2 chances to progress through the qualifiers.

It gives 3 guaranteed matches but other than that I think there are better systems for evening out the provinces."
Not sure if there is an 'advantage' to getting two chances in Rds 1 or 1.5 before the AI Last 24, as Prov QF winners also retain twp chances via Prov SFs or Rd 1.5. Essentially, from the twin 16s, 'losers of the losers' are the 1st 8 to be eliminated.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 16/11/2016 04:17:42    1934559

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