National Forum

Qualifier Rd 1.5 - for a level playing field ?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To omahant:  "Yes, half of each Prov in a Last 16 would be fair too- if inter-prov pairings in the next rd cause provs to have representive other than a quarter of the Last 8, so be it - it remains fair.
Hers's a fundamental question relating to the existing structure and composition of the AI Last 24 -
Do you prefer 8 going out in Qual Rd 1 (mostly from Lein/Uls, who also endured a Prov QF or Prelim Rd defeat) and 8 winners join all Prov SF 16 (incl 4 Muns/Conn teams who have done nothing/ yet to play) OR -
8 Prov SF and 8 1st Qual Rd winners advance (to Prov Finals or 2nd Qual Rd) while the 16 losers get 'a common last chance' to determine the remaining 8 teams to advance and 8 to be eliminated ?
For me, it's clear - even with Prov QF wins and losses having less significance - it's the latter.
Lopsided Provs determine Prov Champs but the AI Last 24 is fair despite them."
I see what you're getting at with this.

Realistically I don't think it would be very popular to have a 2nd back door.

I don't like that the provincial championships already have winning Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds not advantageous. Preliminary round and QF losers go in at the same level. Look at Louth this year won their 1st game, played Meath in Leinster and had to then play Derry the next weekend, they probably would have been better off losing their first round. Your system would have no advantage/possible disadvantage to winning provincial quarter finals also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 05/11/2016 09:01:22    1931757

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think it will be the only show in town.

The GPA have stated they'll bring their own proposals by February.

Anyway if there is no other proposal I'd think this should be accepted. The big problem I had was the drawn out nature of the season. That has been fixed very well. Removal of replays is also essential.

If this turns out to be the only show in town, I hope it gets through and any remaining flaws can be sorted in future iterations."
Half the teams from each province making the final 16 or seeding qualifier draws based on league placing are easy options within current structures to bring fairness to the lobsided nature of provincial championships.

If counties who are on the wrong side of the lobsided nature of provincial championships are not lobbying for fairer solutions within the accepted current structures, they really can't have too many complaints.

It'll be interesting to see what option the GPA bring to the table. Realistically they can only suggest 4 groups of 4 after the provincial championships. If they want their suggestion to fly, it'll have to have a detailed response and counter argument to the GAA document.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 05/11/2016 13:05:07    1931823

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I see what you're getting at with this.

Realistically I don't think it would be very popular to have a 2nd back door.

I don't like that the provincial championships already have winning Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds not advantageous. Preliminary round and QF losers go in at the same level. Look at Louth this year won their 1st game, played Meath in Leinster and had to then play Derry the next weekend, they probably would have been better off losing their first round. Your system would have no advantage/possible disadvantage to winning provincial quarter finals also."
So you say Louth would better off entering Qual Rd 1 with 0-1 than the actual 1-1 - maybd you are right.
However, ir may be more imporant to address first the issue than a Muns bye enter Rd 2 with 0-1.
I would have Louth 0-2 entering Rd 1.5 with Muns 0-1 bye team (Louth is not at a disadvantage for losing Rd 1 along with the Prov loss).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 05/11/2016 21:20:33    1931949

Link

The GAA want to reinvigorate the qualifiers. I think their preference is for 3 qualifiers rounds with Division 4 teams in a second tier championship. They want to set some standard.

This is being discussed far too much. It's time to move on.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 05/11/2016 23:11:21    1931962

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA want to reinvigorate the qualifiers. I think their preference is for 3 qualifiers rounds with Division 4 teams in a second tier championship. They want to set some standard.

This is being discussed far too much. It's time to move on."
I enjoy discussing it. So I will continue to do so.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 06/11/2016 10:25:18    1932000

Link

Replying To omahant:  "So you say Louth would better off entering Qual Rd 1 with 0-1 than the actual 1-1 - maybd you are right.
However, ir may be more imporant to address first the issue than a Muns bye enter Rd 2 with 0-1.
I would have Louth 0-2 entering Rd 1.5 with Muns 0-1 bye team (Louth is not at a disadvantage for losing Rd 1 along with the Prov loss)."
I don't disagree that the qualifiers deserve a revamp in the interests of fairness. I just don't think your revamp is the way to go.

Something that could work.

Round 1
16 teams drawn from the following 20 teams
5 teams out before Ulster semifinals
7 teams out before Leinster semifinals
4 teams out before Connacht final
4 teams out before Munster final

4 byes are given with priority going to teams who have won a round in their provincial championships.

Last season that would've meant 4 from Fermanagh, Louth, Laois, Offaly, Clare, Mayo would get a bye to round 2.

Cork and Sligo after losing their first game would have to play a 1st round qualifier

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 06/11/2016 10:41:25    1932004

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I enjoy discussing it. So I will continue to do so."
Fair enough. With all the discussion is there a motion to go to congress?

Provincial quarter-finalists aren't seeded against preliminary round losers. Why are provincial semi-finalists seeded against first round qualifier winners?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 06/11/2016 11:25:25    1932010

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Fair enough. With all the discussion is there a motion to go to congress?

Provincial quarter-finalists aren't seeded against preliminary round losers. Why are provincial semi-finalists seeded against first round qualifier winners?"
I might submit something again next year.

It'd probably be stupid now. 1 or 2 proposals on the table would be best.

As I say the GAA proposal is a good start but if it gets through it could be easier to then refine and improve it further.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 06/11/2016 11:59:34    1932018

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I might submit something again next year.

It'd probably be stupid now. 1 or 2 proposals on the table would be best.

As I say the GAA proposal is a good start but if it gets through it could be easier to then refine and improve it further."
I've entertained discussions on restructuring the qualifiers as well but there's no appetite for it.

Ulster are happy for an open championship draw in their province. They can't exactly expect the GAA to give them favourable seeding in the qualifiers.

Half the teams from each province making the final 16 offers fairness as well but a competitive province like Ulster might see that as a hindrance and fancy their chances of getting more than half through to the final 16 stage.

Provincial championships having different seeding mechanisms distort the qualifiers. Ulster have division 1 counties entering Q1, many of whom if the Ulster Championship had a fair seeding would only enter Q2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 06/11/2016 12:34:48    1932027

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I enjoy discussing it. So I will continue to do so."
Glad to hear there is still energy left for this yet - in some quarters - if a magic bullet is found, it will be in this small group.
I think the Carlow Plan has a chance - they will try to build on their 40% support of last year.
I would tweak it though as it gives too much seeding to losers in Muns Final (seeded 1) and SFs (seeded 2).
I would have this-- Tier each county 1-4 in AIC (current yr) according to NFL division (next yr) - but move up 4 Prov Champs (prior yr) up to Tier 1, and losers in 4 Prov Finals and 4 Lein/Uls SFs up to Tier 2, if these teams are lower NFL-ranked.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 06/11/2016 23:59:57    1932221

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "I've entertained discussions on restructuring the qualifiers as well but there's no appetite for it.

Ulster are happy for an open championship draw in their province. They can't exactly expect the GAA to give them favourable seeding in the qualifiers.

Half the teams from each province making the final 16 offers fairness as well but a competitive province like Ulster might see that as a hindrance and fancy their chances of getting more than half through to the final 16 stage.

Provincial championships having different seeding mechanisms distort the qualifiers. Ulster have division 1 counties entering Q1, many of whom if the Ulster Championship had a fair seeding would only enter Q2."
Yes, half representation of each Prov in the Last 16 would be fair in a perfect world where pairings between any pair of 32 teams was a toss up - Just a question - by same line of argument, would you agree that in the AI Last 24, three quarters should come from each Prov, one quarter eliminated from each ? - I assume YES - so take my Treble Chance - for convenience, take Lein/Uls (20 teams) and Muns/Conn (12) -
16 winners from Prov SF 16 (LeinUls 4 + MunsConn 4) and 1st Qual Rd 16 (on avg, LU 6 + MU 2) - so combined LU 10 + MC 6.
16 losers to Rd 1.5 (SFs 4+4, 1st QualRd 6+2, which is LU 10 + MC 6 combined from which half emerge, on avg, LU 5 + MC 3)
On average, AI Last 24 has LU 15 (3 quarters of 20) and MC 9 (3 qtrs of 12).
Ulster teams have plenty pportunity to gain 'above average' representation in the Last 24 via intrr-prov pairings in the 'Symmetric 16s' above.
I like Treble Chance as well, as 32 teams (no NY) get a minimum of 3 matches (with two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn only), and the 4-team Champs Playoff Rd is baked in early.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/11/2016 00:33:04    1932224

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I might submit something again next year.

It'd probably be stupid now. 1 or 2 proposals on the table would be best.

As I say the GAA proposal is a good start but if it gets through it could be easier to then refine and improve it further."
They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease - except when it comes to the GAA it seems.
One needs to make a limitless amount of noise - drop of oil will never come.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/11/2016 00:58:59    1932227

Link

Bear with me on a Maths exercise - Current structure - in the AI QFs, each Prov should have one quarter representation -
Prov SF 16 - 4 Champs (4 full AI QF berths), 4 Final losers (4 x half QF berths) + 8 SF losers (8 x 1/8 QF berths) = 7 QF berths.
1st Qual 16 - Need to win 4 straight to enter AI QFs - 1/16 QF berth per team = 1 full QF berth only on avg for 16 teams.
Given the even split in the Prov SF 16 - Lein/Uls gets 3.5 QF berths, and MC 3.5.
The 1st Qual Rd 16 splits proportionately - LU 12/16 (0.75 berths) and MC 4/16 (0.25).
Combined - LU 3.75 + 0.75 = 4.5 well short of 5 needed, 20 quarters) and MC 3.75 + 0.25 = 4 (unfairly high, 3 needed, 12 quarters).
My Treble Chance achieves LU 5 QFs and MC 3 QFs - as follows -
Prov SF 16 - 2 unbeaten Champs (LU 1 full berth) + 2 beaten Champs (LU 0.5 berths) + 4 enter Rd 2 (0.5l + 8 enter Rd 1.5 (0.5) = LU 2.5, MC 2.5.
1st Qual Rd 16 - Teams must win Rd 1 or 1.5 (3 quarters chance) with wins needed in Rds 2 and 3 (1 qtr chance) = 3/16 chance per team, or







3 QF berths overall. LU gets 12/16 x 3 = 2.25 QF berths, MC gets 4/16 x 3 = 0.75 berth.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/11/2016 02:04:31    1932231

Link

....continued....that should read -

Combined - LU 3.5 + 0.75 = 4.25 well short of 5 needed, 20 quarters) and MC 3.5 + 0.25 = 3.75 (unfairly high, 3 needed, 12 quarters).
My Treble Chance achieves 'nearer' LU 5 QFs and MC 3 QFs - as follows -
Prov SF 16 - 2 unbeaten Champs (LU 1 full berth) + 2 beaten Champs (LU 0.5 berths) + 4 enter Rd 2 (0.5) + 8 enter Rd 1.5 (0.5) = LU 2.5, MC 2.5.
1st Qual Rd 16 - Teams must win Rd 1 or 1.5 (3 quarters chance) with wins needed in Rds 2 and 3 (1 qtr chance) = 3/16 chance per team, or
3 QF berths overall. LU gets 12/16 x 3 = 2.25 QF berths, MC gets 4/16 x 3 = 0.75 berth.
Overall - LU 2.5 + 2.25 = 4.75 (just shy of 5 needed), MC 2.5 + 0.75 = 3.25 (just above 3 needed). Being off by one quarter of an AI QF berth is like one full berth in a Rd of 32 and not bad. The actual structure is off three quarters of an AI QF berth - 3 times as much.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/11/2016 18:13:40    1932477

Link

Omahant, you could possibly apply for a job in UEFA? When it comes to coefficients and things like that they are all for it.

The criteria for the GAA is to reinvigorate the qualifiers making money in the process.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 07/11/2016 20:11:01    1932510

Link

Don't tempt me :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 07/11/2016 23:00:35    1932576

Link

Replying To Whammo86: "I might submit something again next year.

It'd probably be stupid now. 1 or 2 proposals on the table would be best.

As I say the GAA proposal is a good start but if it gets through it could be easier to then refine and improve it further."
They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease - except when it comes to the GAA it seems.
One needs to make a limitless amount of noise - drop of oil will never come.
omahant (USA) - Posts:874 - 07/11/2016 00:58:59 19

I think this discussion has been excellent in Identifying an alternative that could potentially meet vital criteria such as giving all County teams a 3 game minimum, while also giving us more games between the bigger teams, essentially high profile matches.

Couple of points though.
1. omahant, I really like your idea's and suggestions, but try and present in a more orthodox manner, It sometimes takes me a little while to figure out your suggestion or structure because of how it written. It's not a slant on the proposal, just harder to understand it with the 0.25 etc.
I understand it, It's just harder to read in a forum context.

2. Club Championships, We need the 12 month Calendar to include the following (below) and give Club games more dedicated time every summer.

- McKenna Cup/O'Byrne Cup etc 3-5 games
- Sigerson Cup/Trench Cup etc - 3-4 games
- National Leagues - 7-9 games.
- Provincial Championships - 3-4 games
- County Club Championship - 3-6 games
- All Ireland Series - 3 games
- Provincial Club Championship - 3-4 games
- All Ireland Club Championship - 2-3 games

Potentially 27 - 38 Games over a 52 week period, not including replays.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/11/2016 23:26:24    1932580

Link

Replying To GaryMc82:  "Replying To Whammo86: "I might submit something again next year.

It'd probably be stupid now. 1 or 2 proposals on the table would be best.

As I say the GAA proposal is a good start but if it gets through it could be easier to then refine and improve it further."
They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease - except when it comes to the GAA it seems.
One needs to make a limitless amount of noise - drop of oil will never come.
omahant (USA) - Posts:874 - 07/11/2016 00:58:59 19

I think this discussion has been excellent in Identifying an alternative that could potentially meet vital criteria such as giving all County teams a 3 game minimum, while also giving us more games between the bigger teams, essentially high profile matches.

Couple of points though.
1. omahant, I really like your idea's and suggestions, but try and present in a more orthodox manner, It sometimes takes me a little while to figure out your suggestion or structure because of how it written. It's not a slant on the proposal, just harder to understand it with the 0.25 etc.
I understand it, It's just harder to read in a forum context.

2. Club Championships, We need the 12 month Calendar to include the following (below) and give Club games more dedicated time every summer.

- McKenna Cup/O'Byrne Cup etc 3-5 games
- Sigerson Cup/Trench Cup etc - 3-4 games
- National Leagues - 7-9 games.
- Provincial Championships - 3-4 games
- County Club Championship - 3-6 games
- All Ireland Series - 3 games
- Provincial Club Championship - 3-4 games
- All Ireland Club Championship - 2-3 games

Potentially 27 - 38 Games over a 52 week period, not including replays."
GaryMc82 - Thanks for the comments. It takes some Maths aptitude to follow some of my thinking - other people have other skills that I don't have.
I can bring a horse to the water but can't make it drink.
In my post above - essentially, if a team gains entry to the AI QFs (say via Prov Champ), that is 1 berth (not earth shattering) - and if a team enters the last Qual Rd (they need one win, on avg half a chance of winning), I can this a 0.5 AI QF berth.
Currently, any team in the 1st Qual Rd 16 need 4 wins to get to the QFs - so I calc this as 1/2 multiplied 4 times or 1/16 or 0.0625.

Two good simple ideas I've seen on this site -
1) Keep existing two-stream structure, with only one change - the 6 losers in Lein/Uls SFs and Muns/Conn Finals neter at the Qual Rd 3 stage (by Whammo, and significantly address current imbalance - like Treble Chance)
2) Keep existing two-stream structure, with 8 Qual Rd winners joining Prov Finalists in 'Rd of 16' (simple, but does not address current imbalance).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 08/11/2016 14:23:42    1932716

Link

2) above, penned by legendzxix

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 08/11/2016 14:34:19    1932731

Link

Many sporting tournaments worldwide have qualifying stages for the main tournament. The All-Ireland series is no different. A group stage will make a clear distinction from all rounds leading to that stage.

A standard has to be set for qualifying for the main event. 16 teams seems the most the All-Ireland series can expand to.

If the All-Ireland series featured 4 groups of 4 for a number of years. Those not involved will reevaluate the merits of a second championship offering guaranteed group stage place in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7821 - 09/11/2016 19:08:42    1933134

Link