National - Tyrone for Sam 2017

Replying To Wally:  "Your post makes little to no sense.

Asking players to respect a national anthem for a couple of minutes is one thing, but expecting players to attend a religious service and pray to a God that they don't believe in is another.

You have used several phases such as unity, respect and players being on the same wave length, but you obviously only mean that these should apply to the Christians.

What about the unity, respect and wave length of the players who may not believe?

I don't care how strong of faith Mickey has it should not be forced upon his players unless they all share the same views."
You're assuming the majority of Harte's players don't want to say the prayer. Assuming it's imposed.

The anthem is a good comparison.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 15:56:37   2020066

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Replying To the_walls:  "And what about people who don't believe in god at all? I went to a Catholic secondary school and I don't believe in any god. I have no idea if there is anyone on the Tyrone panel in that position but surely you can see that by the whole group saying a prayer, it would potentially put anyone on the panel who may not believe in god, or any potential future players, in an akward position. What if a player decides it's not for and doesn't take part. Immediately that makes him "different" to the rest of the group. Surely that is not good for the team? Religion is a personal thing and should be kept personal to the individual."
I'd be fairly confident that Mickey and the management team know these lads well enough on a personal level so as to ascertain if such activities would be upsetting to any of them. You'd be knowing through schools,clubs and parochial relationships if somebody held a different view and I'm sure it would be respected.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts:3834 - 20/07/2017 15:57:18   2020068

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "I think it was Ronan McNamee who mentioned the praying in an interview, probably wishes he hadn't now. It just shows why the managers and players are so guarded in interviews as things like this get picked up and overblown by the media and can be an unwelcome distraction."
I was thinking the exact same thing.i countered 4 different Facebook articles about it with 100's off comments. It was a comment. He didn't say the whole squad prays. I'm sure if a player was of a different faith something could be sorted out, maybe a time if reflectation. Really not a big deal.
No wonder all the interviews are so mundane and boring when this happens. Same thing happened M.Harte last year.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts:800 - 20/07/2017 15:59:52   2020071

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Replying To the_walls:  "And to those who say prayer should be personal and not public it's a ridiculous argument in a pluralistic society.
Banning people from praying in public is equally as bad as the worst forms of Catholic censorship in Ireland in the 20th century.

Not one person has suggested that people should be banned from praying in public, quit with the hysteria. What has been pointed out is that religion is a personal, private thing to each individual and should not be forced on a group. It should not be part of a football team's rituals, it should not influence public policy, it should not be something that any individual who does not share these beliefs should have any need to be cognizant of in public. I

f an individual wishes to pray in public, have at it. If a group of people want to come together to have an old pray, again have at it. It's normally referred to as going to church and I cannot see one position advocating that that should not be allowed."
Groups are allowed to pray in public outside of churches.

At the end of the day a few posters are engaging in anti catholic/anti religious bashing and well they know it.

Then saying i'm engaging in hysteria. You're the ones painting the picture of atheists being dragged to the stake and 'forced' to pray. They can practise mindfullness if they want in the group. McNamee also said some go to mass on the Tyrone panel now and again. Not exactly the strict enforcement you fellas are painting.

Obviously the majority in the Tyrone group are in favour of the prayer, otherwise it wouldn't work. And yes groups can pray outside church if they wish. They can organise in groups like Aetheism Ireland and express their views. It's called freedom of speech.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 16:14:02   2020082

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Was really only being facetious with my comment earlier. What they do as a group within the dressing room walls is entirely their own business, even if it strikes an odd note in today's very different society. Back to the main subject...do Tyrone have what it takes to win the All Ireland? I think they have as much a chance as Kerry and more than Mayo. Should be some game in the All Ireland semi final if/when they meet Dublin."
we haven't done more than any of them teams. Few good results doesn't make us world beaters. Kerry and Dublin will always be there... Mayo are still always the bridesmade. We are behind them all in my opinion until the day we are at least in a final again!

GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts:400 - 20/07/2017 16:20:23   2020086

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Replying To Laois76:  "You're assuming the majority of Harte's players don't want to say the prayer. Assuming it's imposed.

The anthem is a good comparison."
Yes and you are assuming that the majority are in favour.

My point is why is it even a part of the teams preparations if the approval from all the players is even slightly in doubt.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 16:22:25   2020090

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Replying To Wally:  "This has absolutely nothing to do with trying to be modern.

I just believe that religion should not be enforced in any aspect of public life, whether that be our schools, hospitals or sport. Not only today but in any time in our history. I think the worst aspects of Irish life came from this heavy dogma.

Also this was not just a deceit of the rosary that he has asked them to do, he has also clearly asked all the players to attend mass.

Now knowing the approach that Mickey takes to managing his team I would say that if an atheist player revolted against this ritual then he would not be playing football for Tyrone too much longer.

This just should not be happening but more than that I just wish our players could stop reporting on stuff like this as it is purely a distraction going into the quarter final."
I'd be questioning the aspersion that the worst aspects of Irish life came from faith in god,and its heavy dogma. It is undoubtedly true that the clergy and other religious groups had within them certain individuals that committed heinous acts against the most vulnerable. It is also true that the clergy and all the churches did much good work in Ireland,and abroad as missionaries. It was the instillation of good morals and decency that made Irish people a good and decent people in the past and there is no doubt that increasing secularism has brought with it an increase in crime of all sorts,and a decrease in decency toward each other. The bed rock of this past decency was the moral character of the Irish people that was heavily influenced by their faith. Off course good moral character and decency can be within people of different,and of no faiths,it's just that at present nothing is replacing the role that faith played in the past.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts:3834 - 20/07/2017 16:29:43   2020099

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Replying To Laois76:  "What respect and unity though. When all players are on the same wave length. I think atheists can even appreciate that and just take a moment's reflection rather than a prayer.

A scene like that is all about the group. The likes of yourself and Wally are all what about the individual, what about the individual? The individual doesn't have to pray to a God he doesn't believe in but he can draw strength from the unity of purpose."
Well said. The lads are missing this part.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts:3834 - 20/07/2017 16:34:18   2020103

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Replying To Tirchonaill1:  "Is anyone else fed up with this 'top 4 or top 5' teams in the country nonsense, its right up there with 'he's the best full back in the country' etc.etc. it reminds me of the rubbish we used to hear from English soccer pundits about their players being 'world class' whatever that was supposed to mean,I never seen much evidence of it when the chips were down.
there must be half a dozen best full backs in the country at this stage,
Tyrone have the ability to win Sam this year there is no doubt about that, football is all on the day as we seen yesterday with that brilliant Down performance. hunger is key and going by that rationale I think Kerry will win Sam this year, they have lost to the Dubs too many times in recent years and that doesn't sit well in the Kingdom."
Aye it's the same every year all year. Everyone was hyping us up last year too. I was actually a bit on the band wagon but Mayo shot us down and who seen that one? Same again this year. Everyone has a Dublin Kerry final eyed up already but what is to say a Tyrone Mayo final won't happen. Apparently last year the real final was Kerry/Dublin until the final actually happened and then everyone realized it was actually a final not a side show .Again people have short memories. Hyping us up for maybe conteders to beat Dublin. No speak of mayo and A Dublin Kerry final already a cert....All on the day. . .

Bit of a joke in my opinion... For all we know Roscommon are the real deal the year. I don't even mean that in a joking way. They absolutely annihilated Galway. The Same team who beat Mayo, the all Ireland finalists who forced the Champs to a replay... but that would interfere with a Dub/ Kerry final! Does anyone really know how good they might be. I certainly don't. I mean Leicester city won the Prem league. Sorry , Rant over.

GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts:400 - 20/07/2017 16:37:04   2020105

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Replying To seanie_boy:  "I'd be questioning the aspersion that the worst aspects of Irish life came from faith in god,and its heavy dogma. It is undoubtedly true that the clergy and other religious groups had within them certain individuals that committed heinous acts against the most vulnerable. It is also true that the clergy and all the churches did much good work in Ireland,and abroad as missionaries. It was the instillation of good morals and decency that made Irish people a good and decent people in the past and there is no doubt that increasing secularism has brought with it an increase in crime of all sorts,and a decrease in decency toward each other. The bed rock of this past decency was the moral character of the Irish people that was heavily influenced by their faith. Off course good moral character and decency can be within people of different,and of no faiths,it's just that at present nothing is replacing the role that faith played in the past."
Interesting debate guys and has potential to go on forever. I like what tyrone have here and it is working for them. Down could do with some spiritual help....

downtothecore (Down) - Posts:184 - 20/07/2017 16:43:06   2020112

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Replying To seanie_boy:  "Well said. The lads are missing this part."
I think we answered this very adequately earlier.

Wally (Tyrone) - Posts:265 - 20/07/2017 16:57:06   2020122

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Replying To seanie_boy:  "I'd be questioning the aspersion that the worst aspects of Irish life came from faith in god,and its heavy dogma. It is undoubtedly true that the clergy and other religious groups had within them certain individuals that committed heinous acts against the most vulnerable. It is also true that the clergy and all the churches did much good work in Ireland,and abroad as missionaries. It was the instillation of good morals and decency that made Irish people a good and decent people in the past and there is no doubt that increasing secularism has brought with it an increase in crime of all sorts,and a decrease in decency toward each other. The bed rock of this past decency was the moral character of the Irish people that was heavily influenced by their faith. Off course good moral character and decency can be within people of different,and of no faiths,it's just that at present nothing is replacing the role that faith played in the past."
Well said Seanie. People tend to forget all the good points Christianity brought to us. After all pagan celtic Ireland involved human sacrificial rites.

The message of Christianity was good but people are human and have corrupted it.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 17:10:49   2020135

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Replying To Wally:  "Yes and you are assuming that the majority are in favour.

My point is why is it even a part of the teams preparations if the approval from all the players is even slightly in doubt."
You'f nearly have to assume in favour though Wally. Otherwise it would be a terribly empty gesture for the whole panel.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 17:12:06   2020136

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Replying To Laois76:  "Well said Seanie. People tend to forget all the good points Christianity brought to us. After all pagan celtic Ireland involved human sacrificial rites.

The message of Christianity was good but people are human and have corrupted it."
The anthem is a very good example. To the protestant (anglican) the queen is head of their state and religion generally. So to stand to attention to an anthem that speaks about standing in the gap of danger against the foreigner (the English) is literally going against their head of religion and head of state. Yet all bar a few Unionists down through the years have stood for the irish anthem, they didn't walk away or turn their back. One can presume for the greater good of their team mates who believed in the anthem.

A few like Trevor Ringland voiced objection but never insulted the anthem. Even the infamous DUP member, Davy Tweed, stood for it (after taking Mick Galwey's place as lock!!).

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 17:20:17   2020143

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Replying To Laois76:  "The anthem is a very good example. To the protestant (anglican) the queen is head of their state and religion generally. So to stand to attention to an anthem that speaks about standing in the gap of danger against the foreigner (the English) is literally going against their head of religion and head of state. Yet all bar a few Unionists down through the years have stood for the irish anthem, they didn't walk away or turn their back. One can presume for the greater good of their team mates who believed in the anthem.

A few like Trevor Ringland voiced objection but never insulted the anthem. Even the infamous DUP member, Davy Tweed, stood for it (after taking Mick Galwey's place as lock!!)."
Actually the anthem is a bad example for your case. If it was a good one Ireland's Call would never have been written and the anthem would be played at all away games...

...But will Tyrone win Sam this year? I don't think so!

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts:757 - 20/07/2017 19:02:27   2020191

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Actually the anthem is a bad example for your case. If it was a good one Ireland's Call would never have been written and the anthem would be played at all away games...

...But will Tyrone win Sam this year? I don't think so!"
But it's still played at home games, Amhran na Bhfiann!

Back on topic. Em no i don't think so. After Kerry they'd be my next bet though. Recent tradition puts them ahead of Mayo for me.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts:764 - 20/07/2017 19:15:37   2020195

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Replying To Laois76:  "But it's still played at home games, Amhran na Bhfiann!

Back on topic. Em no i don't think so. After Kerry they'd be my next bet though. Recent tradition puts them ahead of Mayo for me."
What have we done to go ahead of Mayo? seriously? beat a weak Donegal child of a team and a few other Ulster kids.Mayo are the bridesmades of Ireland but they are always there, since 2011 they haven't missed a semi....we are never there ! Until we are frequent...

GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts:400 - 20/07/2017 20:47:13   2020223

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Replying To Wally:  "I think we answered this very adequately earlier."
Nah don't think ye did Wally. And you continue to ask why even bother with such activities if there's even doubt that some player is uncomfortable with it. Well I don't know if any player is uncomfortable Wally,do you? I do know that for years now Mickey Harte has had Fr. Gerard Mc Aleer alongside him as the teams spiritual adviser and that any lad who ever want to kick a ball for Tyrone would know the type of men they were going to be involved with if they were to play for Tyrone.

seanie_boy (Tyrone) - Posts:3834 - 20/07/2017 20:53:06   2020225

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Replying To Laois76:  "Groups are allowed to pray in public outside of churches.

At the end of the day a few posters are engaging in anti catholic/anti religious bashing and well they know it.

Then saying i'm engaging in hysteria. You're the ones painting the picture of atheists being dragged to the stake and 'forced' to pray. They can practise mindfullness if they want in the group. McNamee also said some go to mass on the Tyrone panel now and again. Not exactly the strict enforcement you fellas are painting.

Obviously the majority in the Tyrone group are in favour of the prayer, otherwise it wouldn't work. And yes groups can pray outside church if they wish. They can organise in groups like Aetheism Ireland and express their views. It's called freedom of speech."
So you can't point out where anyone advocated or even implied that people should be banned from praying in public? Sound.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 21:03:47   2020229

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Replying To GameOfTyrones:  "we haven't done more than any of them teams. Few good results doesn't make us world beaters. Kerry and Dublin will always be there... Mayo are still always the bridesmade. We are behind them all in my opinion until the day we are at least in a final again!"
I'd agree. This Tyrone team clearly has a lot of potential but until they beat a serious All Ireland contender, then they still have it all to prove for me.

the_walls (Mayo) - Posts:208 - 20/07/2017 21:08:11   2020230

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