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The black card

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The word deliberate is the key word for a black card. Neither Connolly or Hughes either deliberately pull his man down or deliberately tripped Fenton. So in both counts Joe McQuillan was wrong.

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 03/04/2017 17:07:48    1974918

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Replying To shaggylegend:  "The word deliberate is the key word for a black card. Neither Connolly or Hughes either deliberately pull his man down or deliberately tripped Fenton. So in both counts Joe McQuillan was wrong."
Connolly tackled for the ball, what was Hughes at exactly?

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12115 - 03/04/2017 18:01:30    1974946

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Its a farce - end off.

Not one player , past or present from any county or province that embrace it.

Its a joke and has ruined so many matches for big players ie : Cooper and Keegan .

Get it out .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 03/04/2017 18:04:39    1974950

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Having looked at the incident again on the tg4 player their is no way Joe McQuillan can determine if Darren's action was deliberate. Hughes didn't lift his foot up or anything it was a coming together of feet. Another question is why would Hughes deliberately trip Fenton who was going lateral across the pitch and risk get black carded. It was a awful call.

The black rule from the official rules is as follows
1. Deliberately pulling down an opponent.
2. Deliberately tripping an opponent with a hand, arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body colliding with an opponent after he as played the ball, or for the purpose of taking him out of the movement of play.
4. Threatening or using abusive or proactive behaviour towards and opponent or team mate.
5. Remonstrating in an aggressive manner with a match official.

To deliberately pull down an opponent, both Carey and Reddin where guilty of this offense.

No way could a referee or anyone else on this page tell me Darren Hughes deliberately tripped Fenton. If they do they are a mind reader.

Deliberate body collide to take a player out of the movement of player was the offence Bernard Brogan was guilty of.

Hope that clears it up and I have watch all the incidents.

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 03/04/2017 18:13:10    1974958

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Replying To shaggylegend:  "Having looked at the incident again on the tg4 player their is no way Joe McQuillan can determine if Darren's action was deliberate. Hughes didn't lift his foot up or anything it was a coming together of feet. Another question is why would Hughes deliberately trip Fenton who was going lateral across the pitch and risk get black carded. It was a awful call.

The black rule from the official rules is as follows
1. Deliberately pulling down an opponent.
2. Deliberately tripping an opponent with a hand, arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body colliding with an opponent after he as played the ball, or for the purpose of taking him out of the movement of play.
4. Threatening or using abusive or proactive behaviour towards and opponent or team mate.
5. Remonstrating in an aggressive manner with a match official.

To deliberately pull down an opponent, both Carey and Reddin where guilty of this offense.

No way could a referee or anyone else on this page tell me Darren Hughes deliberately tripped Fenton. If they do they are a mind reader.

Deliberate body collide to take a player out of the movement of player was the offence Bernard Brogan was guilty of.

Hope that clears it up and I have watch all the incidents."
And your number 12

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 03/04/2017 18:42:00    1974970

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Replying To shaggylegend:  "Having looked at the incident again on the tg4 player their is no way Joe McQuillan can determine if Darren's action was deliberate. Hughes didn't lift his foot up or anything it was a coming together of feet. Another question is why would Hughes deliberately trip Fenton who was going lateral across the pitch and risk get black carded. It was a awful call.

The black rule from the official rules is as follows
1. Deliberately pulling down an opponent.
2. Deliberately tripping an opponent with a hand, arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body colliding with an opponent after he as played the ball, or for the purpose of taking him out of the movement of play.
4. Threatening or using abusive or proactive behaviour towards and opponent or team mate.
5. Remonstrating in an aggressive manner with a match official.

To deliberately pull down an opponent, both Carey and Reddin where guilty of this offense.

No way could a referee or anyone else on this page tell me Darren Hughes deliberately tripped Fenton. If they do they are a mind reader.

Deliberate body collide to take a player out of the movement of player was the offence Bernard Brogan was guilty of.

Hope that clears it up and I have watch all the incidents."
"Deliberate body collide to take a player out of the movement of player was the offence Bernard Brogan was guilty of." really so he deliberately took him out so who's reading minds know? A rule book is worth nothing if it has language such as that in it simply because it is subjective, GAA rule books are brilliant at speaking with forked tongues whoever writes them needs to go back to school.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4894 - 03/04/2017 19:16:05    1974995

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Don't care about the ins and outs of this weekend's black card incidents but I'd just like to say again that this rule is stupid.

Stupid, stupid rule.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13703 - 03/04/2017 19:17:28    1974997

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Replying To Jackeen:  "And your number 12"
It was number 11 who took down the Dublin player in the second half and is mentioned above As Shane Carey.

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 03/04/2017 19:42:45    1975005

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By the way had did the ref miss Conor McManus push on Fitzsimon's in the lead to Monaghan's goal, we were all watching From that side of the pitch saying free free and he gives nothing we couldn't believe it the most blantant foul I seen all day and the ref lets it go. Fitzsimon's was fuming he nearly ended up in the stand with us. Is that technically a black card if the free was given?

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 03/04/2017 19:48:33    1975010

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Replying To Jackeen:  "And your number 12"
Thanks for posting the rules but I have to disagree. As a Dub I know you wouldn't necessarily be defending Hughes but he stuck the leg out and knew exactly what he was doing. I've just watched the replay myself and as a referee I'd have to say. JMcQ got that right.
He got the Connolly one wrong though. DC grabs him a little and the player goes to ground but he did not deliberately bring him to the ground and that's why I think he got it wrong. Just because a player goes to ground it doesn't mean the tackler did it deliberately.
The tackle by Carey on Fenton, I thought initially was a stone wall black but the replay shows JMcQ got it right. He tugged him back and he fell because the legs got tangled - the tug was deliberate but the leg tangle was not and he did not intend to bring him to the ground - an important difference.
Bernard Brogan should have got black at the end of the first half as he clearly took the corner back out of it after playing the ball as should Jack MCCarron for his tackle on Cluxton after the ball had been played. The ref didn't see and went back to consult his umpires. He probably didn't want to send anyone off if he wasn't sure so just dealt with it with yellows all round. Sometimes that needs to be done.

Incidentally, if you pust a player to the ground or grab him cynically and hold him up, it's not black. I made that mistake myself in my very first game on it's introduction and incorrectly sent a guy off - Luckiliy nobody complained!!

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 03/04/2017 20:20:54    1975032

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Watching the Monaghan v Dublin game yesterday have to say the black card is ruining these games players like Darren Hughes and Duirmaid Connolly are the players we all want to see on the pitch surely a 10 minute sin bin would be better?

mccullagh (Leitrim) - Posts: 5 - 03/04/2017 20:25:03    1975036

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Replying To Sindar:  "Thanks for posting the rules but I have to disagree. As a Dub I know you wouldn't necessarily be defending Hughes but he stuck the leg out and knew exactly what he was doing. I've just watched the replay myself and as a referee I'd have to say. JMcQ got that right.
He got the Connolly one wrong though. DC grabs him a little and the player goes to ground but he did not deliberately bring him to the ground and that's why I think he got it wrong. Just because a player goes to ground it doesn't mean the tackler did it deliberately.
The tackle by Carey on Fenton, I thought initially was a stone wall black but the replay shows JMcQ got it right. He tugged him back and he fell because the legs got tangled - the tug was deliberate but the leg tangle was not and he did not intend to bring him to the ground - an important difference.
Bernard Brogan should have got black at the end of the first half as he clearly took the corner back out of it after playing the ball as should Jack MCCarron for his tackle on Cluxton after the ball had been played. The ref didn't see and went back to consult his umpires. He probably didn't want to send anyone off if he wasn't sure so just dealt with it with yellows all round. Sometimes that needs to be done.

Incidentally, if you pust a player to the ground or grab him cynically and hold him up, it's not black. I made that mistake myself in my very first game on it's introduction and incorrectly sent a guy off - Luckiliy nobody complained!!"
Sorry, I meant to reply that to shaggylegend

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 03/04/2017 20:37:16    1975051

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Replying To mccullagh:  "Watching the Monaghan v Dublin game yesterday have to say the black card is ruining these games players like Darren Hughes and Duirmaid Connolly are the players we all want to see on the pitch surely a 10 minute sin bin would be better?"
Even if those players play cynically? It's their decision not to play within the rules.

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 03/04/2017 20:39:53    1975052

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Replying To Sindar:  "
Replying To Sindar:  "Thanks for posting the rules but I have to disagree. As a Dub I know you wouldn't necessarily be defending Hughes but he stuck the leg out and knew exactly what he was doing. I've just watched the replay myself and as a referee I'd have to say. JMcQ got that right.
He got the Connolly one wrong though. DC grabs him a little and the player goes to ground but he did not deliberately bring him to the ground and that's why I think he got it wrong. Just because a player goes to ground it doesn't mean the tackler did it deliberately.
The tackle by Carey on Fenton, I thought initially was a stone wall black but the replay shows JMcQ got it right. He tugged him back and he fell because the legs got tangled - the tug was deliberate but the leg tangle was not and he did not intend to bring him to the ground - an important difference.
Bernard Brogan should have got black at the end of the first half as he clearly took the corner back out of it after playing the ball as should Jack MCCarron for his tackle on Cluxton after the ball had been played. The ref didn't see and went back to consult his umpires. He probably didn't want to send anyone off if he wasn't sure so just dealt with it with yellows all round. Sometimes that needs to be done.

Incidentally, if you pust a player to the ground or grab him cynically and hold him up, it's not black. I made that mistake myself in my very first game on it's introduction and incorrectly sent a guy off - Luckiliy nobody complained!!"
Sorry, I meant to reply that to shaggylegend"
If you actually watch the McCarron Cluxton incident, Cluxton moves in McCarron's direction not the other way around. McCarron was extremely angry at cluxton and confronted him about it. I have watched the game in full and replayed the incidents numerous times. Just because your a referee doesn't mean you can read minds.

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 03/04/2017 20:54:16    1975067

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Replying To Sindar:  "Even if those players play cynically? It's their decision not to play within the rules."
I'm all for cutting out cynical play but one 50/50 decision like the keegan black card in last years final can spoil a great game there is so much inconsistency aswell around it also the bigger county's with top quality subs such as Dublin are affected much less

mccullagh (Leitrim) - Posts: 5 - 03/04/2017 21:54:28    1975091

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Replying To mccullagh:  "I'm all for cutting out cynical play but one 50/50 decision like the keegan black card in last years final can spoil a great game there is so much inconsistency aswell around it also the bigger county's with top quality subs such as Dublin are affected much less"
I agree that Keegan on Connolly was never a black (I think Joe McQ was the ref that day as well) but cynical play that we used to see a lot more of spoiled games a lot more.

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 03/04/2017 22:22:48    1975103

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Replying To shaggylegend:  "The word deliberate is the key word for a black card. Neither Connolly or Hughes either deliberately pull his man down or deliberately tripped Fenton. So in both counts Joe McQuillan was wrong."
He makes a lot of very poor decisions-neither was a black card and Hughes was not even a foul

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 04/04/2017 01:45:01    1975149

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The fact that the black card debate runs on and on, week in/week out, it causes nothing but confusion, it means it not working, another one of those silly rules from the fat cats in Croke Park. It causes far too much confusion, and in the context of it all, whats the point in losing a man and then being able to bring on a man to replace him, wheres the punishment in that?
A foul is a foul regardless, if its a cynical foul, then its a yellow, if he does it again, then its a red, full stop.

cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 04/04/2017 10:06:35    1975250

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Replying To cavanblueman:  "The fact that the black card debate runs on and on, week in/week out, it causes nothing but confusion, it means it not working, another one of those silly rules from the fat cats in Croke Park. It causes far too much confusion, and in the context of it all, whats the point in losing a man and then being able to bring on a man to replace him, wheres the punishment in that?
A foul is a foul regardless, if its a cynical foul, then its a yellow, if he does it again, then its a red, full stop."
There's not even consensus on a forum like this and I'm sure most posters have watched the incidents in question multiple times, in slow motion and (maybe) different angles. If posters can't, in the cold light of day, agree on whether the offences merited black cards or not, then what hope do the refs have?

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 04/04/2017 10:41:16    1975289

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Replying To Sindar:  "I agree that Keegan on Connolly was never a black (I think Joe McQ was the ref that day as well) but cynical play that we used to see a lot more of spoiled games a lot more."
He wasn't the ref that day and it wasn't a black card but if you were at the game watching it live I thought it was a black
Card all day for Keegan but then after watching it back it wasn't imo but you couldn't give out about the call in real
Time a ref has one look and one second to make a decision. And as you say the black card doesn't really affect Dublin as we have the panel to cope with most players black carded.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 04/04/2017 11:32:14    1975315

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