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I really don't see the harm. If a lad in Dublin, Kerry or any county is not selected for the county panel then why can't they play for any other county. If it's feasible for the player and the county involved I really don't see why that shouldn't be trialed. If the lad turns out to be a success well then his home county will know to pick him the following year.
Dublin are reaping the rewards from selecting players from every club in Dublin. As Micko pointed out when he was touted for the Dublin job in 2004, Dublin were too rigid in their selection process. They would only select from senior teams and it was only rare exceptions from intermediate or junior club teams that would make the cut.
Dub fans am I right in saying that pre-Gilroy, Bryan Cullen was the only Dublin player on the panel from an intermediate/junior team?
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 08/09/2017 09:57:31
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Replying To keithlemon: "I really don't see the harm. If a lad in Dublin, Kerry or any county is not selected for the county panel then why can't they play for any other county. If it's feasible for the player and the county involved I really don't see why that shouldn't be trialed. If the lad turns out to be a success well then his home county will know to pick him the following year.
Dublin are reaping the rewards from selecting players from every club in Dublin. As Micko pointed out when he was touted for the Dublin job in 2004, Dublin were too rigid in their selection process. They would only select from senior teams and it was only rare exceptions from intermediate or junior club teams that would make the cut.
Dub fans am I right in saying that pre-Gilroy, Bryan Cullen was the only Dublin player on the panel from an intermediate/junior team?" He may not want to play for another county.
Unless he's living in or working/studying in the other county the current rules prohibit it.
If they changed the rules what happens to the loyal county men who worked their way into the county team only to be told 'You're dropped because a Super 8 county has too many good players. One that can't get in their squad will take the spot you've shed blood sweat and tears for'?
Dublin have always had a lot of good players and they work damn hard to even get into their squad. It's a very high level, a high bar to achieve. To split the county in two will lower the bar. And to put out players on loan is disrespectful to so-called weaker counties.
We need to try and reach their level rather than think of ways of making them lower their standards. Long-term the GAA have to improve standards at the bottom and strive to reduce the gap between top and bottom.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7325 - 08/09/2017 11:18:02
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Replying To GreenandRed: "He may not want to play for another county.
Unless he's living in or working/studying in the other county the current rules prohibit it.
If they changed the rules what happens to the loyal county men who worked their way into the county team only to be told 'You're dropped because a Super 8 county has too many good players. One that can't get in their squad will take the spot you've shed blood sweat and tears for'?
Dublin have always had a lot of good players and they work damn hard to even get into their squad. It's a very high level, a high bar to achieve. To split the county in two will lower the bar. And to put out players on loan is disrespectful to so-called weaker counties.
We need to try and reach their level rather than think of ways of making them lower their standards. Long-term the GAA have to improve standards at the bottom and strive to reduce the gap between top and bottom." A parent rule maybe? If it has been mentioned apologies, just started reading the thread.
So many kids wearing 2 and 3 county jersies in Laois!
Wasn't Declan D'arcy Leitrim and Dublin a Leitrim player because of a parent from there?
Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 08/09/2017 11:42:18
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If they changed the rules what happens to the loyal county men who worked their way into the county team only to be told 'You're dropped because a Super 8 county has too many good players. One that can't get in their squad will take the spot you've shed blood sweat and tears for'?
Dublin have always had a lot of good players and they work damn hard to even get into their squad. It's a very high level, a high bar to achieve. To split the county in two will lower the bar. And to put out players on loan is disrespectful to so-called weaker counties.
We need to try and reach their level rather than think of ways of making them lower their standards. Long-term the GAA have to improve standards at the bottom and strive to reduce the gap between top and bottom.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts:4036 - 08/09/2017 11:18:02
I'm think there is always players who will never get on a County panel maybe because of the County Manager, regardless of how hard they train or how much effort they put in they simply won't make the cut.
And so in situations like that, there could be a rule that if a players is not selected as part of his Counties larger 35 man panel at the start of the year, he is free to transfer to another County (Under mutual agreement by County management and player ) for the remainder of that year.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/09/2017 13:59:35
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Replying To GaryMc82: "If they changed the rules what happens to the loyal county men who worked their way into the county team only to be told 'You're dropped because a Super 8 county has too many good players. One that can't get in their squad will take the spot you've shed blood sweat and tears for'?
Dublin have always had a lot of good players and they work damn hard to even get into their squad. It's a very high level, a high bar to achieve. To split the county in two will lower the bar. And to put out players on loan is disrespectful to so-called weaker counties.
We need to try and reach their level rather than think of ways of making them lower their standards. Long-term the GAA have to improve standards at the bottom and strive to reduce the gap between top and bottom.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts:4036 - 08/09/2017 11:18:02
I'm think there is always players who will never get on a County panel maybe because of the County Manager, regardless of how hard they train or how much effort they put in they simply won't make the cut.
And so in situations like that, there could be a rule that if a players is not selected as part of his Counties larger 35 man panel at the start of the year, he is free to transfer to another County (Under mutual agreement by County management and player ) for the remainder of that year." Fair enough but it'd be hard to work logistically. Let's take someone from Dublin born and raised. Let's say Longford "sign" him for a year. Would he then be expected to travel up to Longford at least twice a week for training, as well as at the weekend? It's all hypothetical but I can't see how it could realistically work.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9104 - 08/09/2017 14:56:24
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Replying To Lockjaw: " Replying To GaryMc82: "If they changed the rules what happens to the loyal county men who worked their way into the county team only to be told 'You're dropped because a Super 8 county has too many good players. One that can't get in their squad will take the spot you've shed blood sweat and tears for'?
Dublin have always had a lot of good players and they work damn hard to even get into their squad. It's a very high level, a high bar to achieve. To split the county in two will lower the bar. And to put out players on loan is disrespectful to so-called weaker counties.
We need to try and reach their level rather than think of ways of making them lower their standards. Long-term the GAA have to improve standards at the bottom and strive to reduce the gap between top and bottom.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts:4036 - 08/09/2017 11:18:02
I'm think there is always players who will never get on a County panel maybe because of the County Manager, regardless of how hard they train or how much effort they put in they simply won't make the cut.
And so in situations like that, there could be a rule that if a players is not selected as part of his Counties larger 35 man panel at the start of the year, he is free to transfer to another County (Under mutual agreement by County management and player ) for the remainder of that year." Fair enough but it'd be hard to work logistically. Let's take someone from Dublin born and raised. Let's say Longford "sign" him for a year. Would he then be expected to travel up to Longford at least twice a week for training, as well as at the weekend? It's all hypothetical but I can't see how it could realistically work."
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9104 - 08/09/2017 16:02:19
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And before anyone shoots back, I know that Dublin based county players regularly travel home for county training during the week. But that's for their own county where the emotional attachment is obviously strong. Would the same be the case for 'signed' players? I doubt it. Not unless there was money being exchanged. We're down a dangerous path if we go that route.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts:5518 - 08/09/2017 16:02:19 2
Well this is a GAA forum where some of the most quirky ideas and proposals are normally discussed and scrutinised away from formal settings, so no harm throwing it out there.
I don't think money would be the issue, I think a lot of people know deep down that all of the bigger Counties have quality players who are either excluded or chose to leave due to disagreement or fighting with current management. Imagine your a player like Kyle Coney or Leo McLoone who aren't of their respective Tyrone or Donegal panels. Then Derry GAA approaches and asks if you would be interested in playing with them next year, it creates an interesting dynamic.
In some ways it might stop them going to the US, however fans of the bigger or more successful Counties would probably still take issue with such players lining up with the enemy.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 09/09/2017 19:48:58
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The GAA make about €61m in revenue a year. They spend €11m in games development. Only €1.5m of that is given to Dublin. They've just rolled out a project where an extra €500k is being given to Leinster council so that a similar structure that was put in place in Dublin will be followed in Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow. Where does the money come from Jim, seriously. The association has limited resources it has to be allocated some way.
People are always giving out about competition structures too. I enjoy discussing this topic and I think improvements could be made to provide more games, better scheduling and a bit more fairness between the Provinces. The competitions though really aren't bad. You've All Ireland championships where every team gets 2 chances at least. Tournaments have to be kept exciting, if you're losing twice in a competition early days then you just wouldn't make any sort of impact later in the season anyway.
Those that say there needs to be a tiered system. Well there is one already. The league. 4 tiers, 1/4 of the teams will get a final at Croke Park to play in. Jim talks about a kid growing up in Leitrim should have the opportunity to play in Croke Park. Well they do. Be ranked 25 or 26th of 32 in the league and you will play in Croke Park. Seriously it's not that exclusive.
People complain about the Provincial championships. These are just the early stages of the tournament. They are going to have mismatches. There is some unfairness, it was improved by the qualifier system. Being packaged as the Provincial championships and having the local rivalry flavour attached to them keeps the interest alive. You can see that in how the attendances look. For weaker counties to get whatever sponsorship they can get they need to be playing some high profile games. You look at the interest in the qualifiers compared to the Provincials and I think you see what would happen to attendances and profile of matches if they were replaced by a group stage. Really they need to be kept in the All Ireland series also, the Ulster hurling championship has completely died. Counties are sending out weakened teams and not fulfilling fixtures because they are focusing on Rackard and Ring cups instead. Attendances in lower tier competitions are not good in hurling either. Antrim footballers play in front of a bigger crowd in a first round Ulster championship match than the hurlers do in a Christy Ring final. So I don't think tiering the championship is especially the answer either.
They do care about the club game too. Over the last few years motions have gone to central council to improve the fixtures problem at club level and not always gotten through. From 2018 on extra time will be used in all but Provincial and All Ireland finals. Intercounty championship replays are big money spinners and these are getting foregone largely in favour of improving the club fixtures. The intercounty season is being quite drastically shortened at all stages to allow more time for the club player.
I don't really know what people are expecting. Every season there will be 8 teams eliminated in qualifier round 1, there will be 8 teams in division 4 of the league. There are always going to be better teams than others. The game is pretty competitive outside of Dublin really. There's loads of movement in the leagues. The same teams aren't always hitting the quarterfinals, year on year.
Having said all that, I still think the association is in a really decent place and where there are problems steps have been taking to make improvements.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 10/09/2017 10:32:23
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Surprised to see Jimmy talking about Jim Gavin taking a risk by not giving Connolly game time in the semi-final and how he feels Mayo players having 8 hours more championship football played than Connolly this year may be a help to them. It's not very consistent with the complaints he has had in the past about teams benefiting from easy passages to All-Ireland finals and peaking for particular days.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 13/09/2017 10:33:00
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Replying To Soma: "Surprised to see Jimmy talking about Jim Gavin taking a risk by not giving Connolly game time in the semi-final and how he feels Mayo players having 8 hours more championship football played than Connolly this year may be a help to them. It's not very consistent with the complaints he has had in the past about teams benefiting from easy passages to All-Ireland finals and peaking for particular days." Excellent point
Frederick (Louth) - Posts: 479 - 13/09/2017 11:21:43
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Replying To Soma: "Surprised to see Jimmy talking about Jim Gavin taking a risk by not giving Connolly game time in the semi-final and how he feels Mayo players having 8 hours more championship football played than Connolly this year may be a help to them. It's not very consistent with the complaints he has had in the past about teams benefiting from easy passages to All-Ireland finals and peaking for particular days." That's another article of his that I thought was rubbish.
I don't think Connolly starts. I'd be somewhat surprised if he plays significant minutes even. I think it only really happens if Dublin are behind and need to gamble.
Dublin should win this game without Connolly. He's a great player but he's way too much of a liability that Dublin just don't need.
As for the too many matches thing, people always read too much into these things. It seems to be properly difficult to play a qualifier 6 days after a Provincial loss, other than that I think it's an excuse really.
Mayo won the last day against Kerry so all their game time has helped mouldy their team and perfect their style of play. If they'd lost the story would have been that they'd just too much time in the legs.
People always forget the most obvious reason, I.e. That the winning team was just better than the losing team.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 13/09/2017 11:24:45
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Yeah , I've posted elsewhere about this and think it was just something to say to be done with another article and an angle for the next day if Dublin loose. Lazy stuff really. If Mayo win then fair enough but I think suggesting that it might come down to Connolly getting game time is trying to be too clever and asking a question that has no answer really.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 13/09/2017 13:44:02
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Replying To Soma: "Surprised to see Jimmy talking about Jim Gavin taking a risk by not giving Connolly game time in the semi-final and how he feels Mayo players having 8 hours more championship football played than Connolly this year may be a help to them. It's not very consistent with the complaints he has had in the past about teams benefiting from easy passages to All-Ireland finals and peaking for particular days." I thought it was a valid point myself. How much competitive football has Connolly actually played in the last 3 months? Even if a team gets an easier passage to the latter stages of the championship they're still playing games. It seemed a bit strange to only give him 2 mins v Tyrone especially given the fact the game was over as a contest before half time. Maybe Gavin is punishing Connolly and doesn't trust him anymore??
Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 13/09/2017 14:15:21
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Replying To Whammo86: "The GAA make about €61m in revenue a year. They spend €11m in games development. Only €1.5m of that is given to Dublin. They've just rolled out a project where an extra €500k is being given to Leinster council so that a similar structure that was put in place in Dublin will be followed in Meath, Kildare, Louth and Wicklow. Where does the money come from Jim, seriously. The association has limited resources it has to be allocated some way.
People are always giving out about competition structures too. I enjoy discussing this topic and I think improvements could be made to provide more games, better scheduling and a bit more fairness between the Provinces. The competitions though really aren't bad. You've All Ireland championships where every team gets 2 chances at least. Tournaments have to be kept exciting, if you're losing twice in a competition early days then you just wouldn't make any sort of impact later in the season anyway.
Those that say there needs to be a tiered system. Well there is one already. The league. 4 tiers, 1/4 of the teams will get a final at Croke Park to play in. Jim talks about a kid growing up in Leitrim should have the opportunity to play in Croke Park. Well they do. Be ranked 25 or 26th of 32 in the league and you will play in Croke Park. Seriously it's not that exclusive.
People complain about the Provincial championships. These are just the early stages of the tournament. They are going to have mismatches. There is some unfairness, it was improved by the qualifier system. Being packaged as the Provincial championships and having the local rivalry flavour attached to them keeps the interest alive. You can see that in how the attendances look. For weaker counties to get whatever sponsorship they can get they need to be playing some high profile games. You look at the interest in the qualifiers compared to the Provincials and I think you see what would happen to attendances and profile of matches if they were replaced by a group stage. Really they need to be kept in the All Ireland series also, the Ulster hurling championship has completely died. Counties are sending out weakened teams and not fulfilling fixtures because they are focusing on Rackard and Ring cups instead. Attendances in lower tier competitions are not good in hurling either. Antrim footballers play in front of a bigger crowd in a first round Ulster championship match than the hurlers do in a Christy Ring final. So I don't think tiering the championship is especially the answer either.
They do care about the club game too. Over the last few years motions have gone to central council to improve the fixtures problem at club level and not always gotten through. From 2018 on extra time will be used in all but Provincial and All Ireland finals. Intercounty championship replays are big money spinners and these are getting foregone largely in favour of improving the club fixtures. The intercounty season is being quite drastically shortened at all stages to allow more time for the club player.
I don't really know what people are expecting. Every season there will be 8 teams eliminated in qualifier round 1, there will be 8 teams in division 4 of the league. There are always going to be better teams than others. The game is pretty competitive outside of Dublin really. There's loads of movement in the leagues. The same teams aren't always hitting the quarterfinals, year on year.
Having said all that, I still think the association is in a really decent place and where there are problems steps have been taking to make improvements." Amen to that.
I've lost count of the amount of times people told me that "we need some sort of tiered competition" (or words to that effect), and I had to explain that WE ALREADY BLOODY HAVE ONE...
streaker (Galway) - Posts: 497 - 13/09/2017 20:43:31
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Correct me if I am wrong but is there not a rule for Dublin born players that allows thenm play for a parents county of origin? Is this not how Declan Darcy was able to play for Leitrim?
In all sports there is an elite followed by the rest who just dream of sucess yet sometimes it happens. (Leicester City). Look at the hammerings handed out in the Champions League this week. Can a Celtic or a Feynrood ever win the CL? Sport is not run along Communistic lines where all teams should have equal resources. Dublin won 2 All Irelands between 1977 and 2011..34 years!! Thats hardly dominance. Kerry were going for a 3 in a row as recently as 2008 yet there was no outrage over ther dominance.
Thats not to say that the GAA does need to do a lot more to develop weaker counties. But Kildare and Meath are not poor counties and have decent populations yet are underperforming lately ..in Kildares case for high on a century.
As for dreaming..after 10 minutes of the first Q/F versus Mayo I was thinking we will win this match and Kerry look very beatable. We can reach the final this year. Yes I was brought down to earth soon enough but who is to say if we had beaten that first day that we could not have taken a poor Kerry team? Roscommon piled their limited resources into underage development this past 15 years andit is paying dividends. Other counties should be helped do the same.
Manstein (Roscommon) - Posts: 43 - 14/09/2017 11:05:04
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Replying To keithlemon: "I really don't see the harm. If a lad in Dublin, Kerry or any county is not selected for the county panel then why can't they play for any other county. If it's feasible for the player and the county involved I really don't see why that shouldn't be trialed. If the lad turns out to be a success well then his home county will know to pick him the following year.
Dublin are reaping the rewards from selecting players from every club in Dublin. As Micko pointed out when he was touted for the Dublin job in 2004, Dublin were too rigid in their selection process. They would only select from senior teams and it was only rare exceptions from intermediate or junior club teams that would make the cut.
Dub fans am I right in saying that pre-Gilroy, Bryan Cullen was the only Dublin player on the panel from an intermediate/junior team?" big issue with that..gaa all about representing where you are from..thats the very core of it
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 15/09/2017 01:27:12
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Surprised to see Jimmy talking about Jim Gavin taking a risk by not giving Connolly game time in the semi-final and how he feels Mayo players having 8 hours more championship football played than Connolly this year may be a help to them. It's not very consistent with the complaints he has had in the past about teams benefiting from easy passages to All-Ireland finals and peaking for particular days.
Soma (UK) - Posts:2000 - 13/09/2017 10:33:00 204
In fairness he was probably referring to situations like Donegal v Tyrone in 2013 and 2015, where both sides had to peak for a game in late May, and maintain that level or close to that level for a number of months.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 15/09/2017 21:12:46
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More rubbish from McGuinness today.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-bitter-truth-is-mayo-have-only-themselves-to-blame-1.3225634
It's very easy to spout all this rubbish when you know the result and they've lost. It could very easily have happened that Mayo tried to sit back and ended up getting beaten still. It'd be no easy task to close out a game for that long against a team of Dublin's class.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 19/09/2017 20:11:18
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Replying To Whammo86: "More rubbish from McGuinness today.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-bitter-truth-is-mayo-have-only-themselves-to-blame-1.3225634
It's very easy to spout all this rubbish when you know the result and they've lost. It could very easily have happened that Mayo tried to sit back and ended up getting beaten still. It'd be no easy task to close out a game for that long against a team of Dublin's class." Jim has had a pretty bad run of dodgy articles recently
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20598 - 19/09/2017 20:38:52
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Replying To Whammo86: "More rubbish from McGuinness today.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-bitter-truth-is-mayo-have-only-themselves-to-blame-1.3225634
It's very easy to spout all this rubbish when you know the result and they've lost. It could very easily have happened that Mayo tried to sit back and ended up getting beaten still. It'd be no easy task to close out a game for that long against a team of Dublin's class." Jim is the only manager to have managed to beat this Dublin team under Gavin in the championship, and he took Donegal from nowhere to win Ulster Titles and an All Ireland in his 4 years in charge, so his opinions mean something to alot of people and he is spot on again as usual, of course the begrudgery of his success then and since is still evident from a lot of sources,
Mayo can complain all they like about refereeing decisions etc. but the truth is Mayo only have themselves to blame, they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory,again.
The story of this All Ireland should be how brilliant this Dublin team are, 3 in a row is a magnificent achievement, all we are hearing though is whining from Mayo, get over it,as Roy Keane might say.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2733 - 19/09/2017 22:17:32
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