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In rugby there is a clear communication process with the officials both for players during the game, and management after the game.
During the game all communication is through the captains and any abuse is not tolerated.
Refs are assessed after each game and the team management must also submit their thoughts to the assessor.
When mistakes are made they are acknowledged (no replays - just a promise to try do better next time). Because of this it feeds into the players behavior etc
In GAA my belief is players would except bad decisions more readily if they believed issues would be properly addressed. The frustration of feeling like your banging your head against a brick wall has to play a part in some of the over the top reactions during games. If managers got feedback from the referees assessor after all games it would go a long way to address things.
This should also be accompanied by a zero tolerance for certain types of behavior on the field.
All the above being said until clubs police their own and stop blindly standing by their man nothing will work. I was on a committee once that suspended our own player for verbal abuse of a referee. A lot of people in the club didn't agree (he was a star player) but it sent out a message.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1829 - 06/01/2017 14:52:29
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Yeah, the lot of a referee is a difficult one and when you have a few thousand amateur refs in the crowd it doesn't make for an easy afternoon.There needs to be more responsibility placed with linesmen and umpires getting training and given more input also.Along with this I'd stop refs bringing along the lads from home as umpires and replace them with fully trained ref standard umpires who get more input and power to help with giving direction to referee.
Their has to be more help given to referees as they are being asked to do a thankless job but are also being overburdened with responsibility. I don't believe they set out to help one team over another but the focus on decisions made is always likely to be scrutinised more for the winning team and every 50 / 50 decision magnified as if it was the reason they won.
If you look at every AI winners record you can be sure you'll find plenty of games where they got calls for and against that were questionable.Again, more help needs to be given to these guys.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1119 - 05/01/2017 17:54:20What extra training do you want umpires/linesmen to receive? What extra input and power would you give umpires?
What extra help would you give to referees? Do referees attend referee meetings for training regularly?
Umpires are virtually useless as regards contributing to the games and need to be more involved in making decisions. Have them trained up to refereeing standards and be allowed to issue frees and cards inside the 21 yard line as they are best placed to see this especially in hurling where you can have a ref caught 60 yards out the field. Perhaps 2 referees involved , one in each half is another alternative to what is there now. Why not try and make improvements it's the only way things can move forward. If you don't mind me saying, I find your replies and posts to be lased with a condescending attitude towards a lot of posters. This needs to be addressed going forward in 2017 or you'll be getting a red card.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 06/01/2017 16:40:14
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Replying To SaffronDon: "I'll admit that a referees job is as high pressure as it gets in sport and that it is virtually impossible to give every correct decision. There is enough debate on here about major decisions to prove that.
However, I do believe there is a serious lack of communication between referees and everyone else. Managers and to a lesser extent players live and die by their decisions and have to face the media and answer questions about their performances. Where as referees seem to be a protected species. If they would explain why they made certain calls it might relieve some of the controversy that surrounds certain games. It also might make them think twice about making a call that they are not 100% sure of, if they knew they had to explain it later on." While I agree that referees, like everyone else involved in the GAA, (players, managers and supporters) make mistakes, the last thing the game needs is for referees to be afraid to make a call in any game, big or small, because they are worried they might have to 'explain' themselves in the aftermath of a game. I can't imagine any ref would either thrive or improve their own performances under that kind of spotlight.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 06/01/2017 17:36:39
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I can understand most of the above and they are perfectly reasonable reactions to the games we are passionate about. I've heard fellas and women shouting stuff that they would probably prefer to forget at games and God knows I'd be guilty of an outburst or two myself.However when it's all said and done I doubt many of us would do nearly as good a job as the majority of the refs who we level some silly stuff at.I'd be surprised to hear anyone seriously suggesting a ref set out deliberately to do them out of a game.
catch22 (USA) - Posts:116 - 05/01/2017 19:54:43 What cliched nonsense(about passion/obsession!! But i agree with the overall gist of what you said
While I may not be able to articulate my message as well as you may want I think you know what I mean.I don't think obsession has anything to do with it , passion yes.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 06/01/2017 18:53:44
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Refs are afraid to make the big calls, small minor mistakes can be forgiven but major blunders usually change the game for example Kerry v Mayo 2014 replay in Limerick, 1 of the Kerry backs got a ticking and then a yellow card when he should have got a black for a drag down for a Mayo penalty and then Kerry wouldn't have been allowed to put on a sub replacement and would have had to play the remaining 55 mins with 14 men, now they may have gone on to thrash Mayo with 14 men but the ref bottled it and Kerry kept their 15 players on the pitch
riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 06/01/2017 20:25:47
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Replying To AHP: "While I agree that referees, like everyone else involved in the GAA, (players, managers and supporters) make mistakes, the last thing the game needs is for referees to be afraid to make a call in any game, big or small, because they are worried they might have to 'explain' themselves in the aftermath of a game. I can't imagine any ref would either thrive or improve their own performances under that kind of spotlight." what do you mean by 'make a call'? a ref should not be calling anything he is not sure of so therefore answering questions should be easy enough. Even if they did get the odd one wrong and came out afterwards and held their hands up and admit they got it wrong i believe there would be more empathy from managers, players and supporters. It beats running away and hiding until the next game comes round with all the baggage of the previous game still bubbling under the surface.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 06/01/2017 21:08:50
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Replying To SaffronDon: "what do you mean by 'make a call'? a ref should not be calling anything he is not sure of so therefore answering questions should be easy enough. Even if they did get the odd one wrong and came out afterwards and held their hands up and admit they got it wrong i believe there would be more empathy from managers, players and supporters. It beats running away and hiding until the next game comes round with all the baggage of the previous game still bubbling under the surface." By 'make a call' I mean exactly that.... Make a call. Referees have to be able to make split second decisions, without the benefit of multiple angles, 'slo mo' replays or anything else to help them, but they have to have the confidence and authority to make these calls and not be afraid to do their job as best they can.
As I said I accept refs can make mistakes, and some of these mistakes can have a huge impact on a teams season, but the notion of an individual referee having to face the press or cameras in the immediate aftermath of a game is just wrong.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 07/01/2017 07:20:05
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It's easy to be sure of a call in hindsight when the analysts have looked at 5 different slomo playbacks. A ref makes a call in what he sees in a split second and has to go with his instinct and his experience.To suggest he should then come out and explain himself is just plain stupidity.Can you point out one match where a ref hasn't made a mistake with the benefit of look back or camera assistance and what difference an explanation would do anyone.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 07/01/2017 10:21:59
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Replying To AHP: "By 'make a call' I mean exactly that.... Make a call. Referees have to be able to make split second decisions, without the benefit of multiple angles, 'slo mo' replays or anything else to help them, but they have to have the confidence and authority to make these calls and not be afraid to do their job as best they can.
As I said I accept refs can make mistakes, and some of these mistakes can have a huge impact on a teams season, but the notion of an individual referee having to face the press or cameras in the immediate aftermath of a game is just wrong." a ref should only call what he or his officials are convinced of seeing. Being afraid or having the confidence to make a call as you put it shouldn't really be in the mindset of a referee. If its a split second incident that neither the ref or his team can confirm was a foul or whatever then its play on. The tough part for a ref is staying focused for 70 plus minutes in order to deal with these issues. A ref could have the confidence to make calls but they could be the wrong calls if the focus and good practice arent there then what good is that? I have also yet to hear a good reason why it is wrong for a ref to answer a few question post match?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/01/2017 10:45:35
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Replying To Dubh_linn: "It's easy to be sure of a call in hindsight when the analysts have looked at 5 different slomo playbacks. A ref makes a call in what he sees in a split second and has to go with his instinct and his experience.To suggest he should then come out and explain himself is just plain stupidity.Can you point out one match where a ref hasn't made a mistake with the benefit of look back or camera assistance and what difference an explanation would do anyone." of course refs make mistakes in every game and its as tough a job to get right as i can think of. But at the same time the ref and his team should only be making decisions that he and his officials are convinced are the right ones. This wont always be mean they make the right call of course. But if they where to come out post match and say this was the angle i saw it from and this is why i made the decision and now i realise it may have been the wrong decision. There would be greater respect and empathy for refs. At present, if a ref makes a string of bad calls he gains a bad reputation that doesn't leave him partly because nobody gets to hear his point of view on the incidents.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/01/2017 10:55:08
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Replying To SaffronDon: "of course refs make mistakes in every game and its as tough a job to get right as i can think of. But at the same time the ref and his team should only be making decisions that he and his officials are convinced are the right ones. This wont always be mean they make the right call of course. But if they where to come out post match and say this was the angle i saw it from and this is why i made the decision and now i realise it may have been the wrong decision. There would be greater respect and empathy for refs. At present, if a ref makes a string of bad calls he gains a bad reputation that doesn't leave him partly because nobody gets to hear his point of view on the incidents." That's just it though, they make mistakes in every game.If they have to come out and explain themselves continuously then they will only be completely undermined and have to second guess every decision as this will only lead to further mistakes which will make them completely ineffective. That just isn't realistic and is plain daft.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 07/01/2017 12:38:33
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Replying To Dubh_linn: "That's just it though, they make mistakes in every game.If they have to come out and explain themselves continuously then they will only be completely undermined and have to second guess every decision as this will only lead to further mistakes which will make them completely ineffective. That just isn't realistic and is plain daft." yea because opinions of GAA refs at present are just fantastic aren't they! if refs in rugby can give a reason for a decision during a match then giving a reason after the heat of the contest wouldn't be asking much. I think the level of respect rises when a decision is explained and in GAA and soccer this doesnt happen and thats why players and managers are banging their heads of the wall and this increases hostility from supporters also. That is far more pressure than a simple air clearing interview.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/01/2017 13:37:43
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Replying To SaffronDon: "of course refs make mistakes in every game and its as tough a job to get right as i can think of. But at the same time the ref and his team should only be making decisions that he and his officials are convinced are the right ones. This wont always be mean they make the right call of course. But if they where to come out post match and say this was the angle i saw it from and this is why i made the decision and now i realise it may have been the wrong decision. There would be greater respect and empathy for refs. At present, if a ref makes a string of bad calls he gains a bad reputation that doesn't leave him partly because nobody gets to hear his point of view on the incidents." SaffronDon, from reading your posts I get the impression that you are taking the ref "making a call" as awarding a free, giving a card, etc. In reality, every decision the referee makes over 70+ minutes is the ref "making a call", even when that call is that there was no foul play. I doubt any referee makes a decision he doesn't believe is the right one at the time.
Suggesting that referees should have to come out and explain their decisions would, as another poster said, completely undermine the authority of referees. Any more than bring a player into an interview and replaying when he dropped a pass or put an easy score wide, what purpose does it really serve... are you going to get an answer that will satisfy anyone. Frankly the side who feels they are on the bad side of decisions quite often as looking for a scapegoat and don't want to hear/believe an explanation of these decisions, even if the referee was in the right.
game.on.now.ger (Galway) - Posts: 423 - 07/01/2017 14:08:08
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Replying To Dubh_linn: "Yeah, the lot of a referee is a difficult one and when you have a few thousand amateur refs in the crowd it doesn't make for an easy afternoon.There needs to be more responsibility placed with linesmen and umpires getting training and given more input also.Along with this I'd stop refs bringing along the lads from home as umpires and replace them with fully trained ref standard umpires who get more input and power to help with giving direction to referee.
Their has to be more help given to referees as they are being asked to do a thankless job but are also being overburdened with responsibility. I don't believe they set out to help one team over another but the focus on decisions made is always likely to be scrutinised more for the winning team and every 50 / 50 decision magnified as if it was the reason they won.
If you look at every AI winners record you can be sure you'll find plenty of games where they got calls for and against that were questionable.Again, more help needs to be given to these guys.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1119 - 05/01/2017 17:54:20What extra training do you want umpires/linesmen to receive? What extra input and power would you give umpires?
What extra help would you give to referees? Do referees attend referee meetings for training regularly?
Umpires are virtually useless as regards contributing to the games and need to be more involved in making decisions. Have them trained up to refereeing standards and be allowed to issue frees and cards inside the 21 yard line as they are best placed to see this especially in hurling where you can have a ref caught 60 yards out the field. Perhaps 2 referees involved , one in each half is another alternative to what is there now. Why not try and make improvements it's the only way things can move forward. If you don't mind me saying, I find your replies and posts to be lased with a condescending attitude towards a lot of posters. This needs to be addressed going forward in 2017 or you'll be getting a red card." The role of the umpires quite simply is to determine is a score is made or not. This is not the easiest task at times, and I doubt it would benefit from umpires be given extra responsibilities regarding discipline. Umpires to have the authority to report any off-the-ball incidents to the ref during a break in play, but being expect to judge on-the-ball action could only negatively impact the performance of their primary duty - not much point the umpire looking out for fouls in the build-up if he can't tell you whether or not the shot went between the posts.
If any one was going to be more empowered to signal frees, cards, etc. it should be the linesmen, as they are trained referees anyway, although this would undoubtedly present its own difficulties regarding positioning, interpretation of rules, view of the incident, signalling, etc.
game.on.now.ger (Galway) - Posts: 423 - 07/01/2017 14:31:07
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your response seems a bit high handed to be honest. Why start comparing with other sports. be specific to GAA. A referee has a huge impact on games. You still haven't gave me a good reason why a ref shouldn't answer a few simple questions that im sure they'd have the answers to. clarity vs what?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1110 - 06/01/2017 12:18:2A referee has huge impact on all sports. Referees should have to answer any questions like you suggest after games because it leads to needless trouble and their should only be clarifications on incidents in relation to clarifications on the rules of the game.
Referees are not respected in the GAA and having officials having to explain decisions makes things worse.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/01/2017 14:51:07
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Replying To game.on.now.ger: "SaffronDon, from reading your posts I get the impression that you are taking the ref "making a call" as awarding a free, giving a card, etc. In reality, every decision the referee makes over 70+ minutes is the ref "making a call", even when that call is that there was no foul play. I doubt any referee makes a decision he doesn't believe is the right one at the time.
Suggesting that referees should have to come out and explain their decisions would, as another poster said, completely undermine the authority of referees. Any more than bring a player into an interview and replaying when he dropped a pass or put an easy score wide, what purpose does it really serve... are you going to get an answer that will satisfy anyone. Frankly the side who feels they are on the bad side of decisions quite often as looking for a scapegoat and don't want to hear/believe an explanation of these decisions, even if the referee was in the right." firstly, i used fouling as an example because it usually is major talking point, I am well aware there are a lot of other calls a ref has to make. You say a ref believes he makes the right call at the time, fair enough then he shouldn't feel pressured in an interview explaining that should he?
Rules changes like the black card are what undermines referees jobs a lot more than something as simple as a referee having his say post match. I dont think your example of a player hitting a wide is the same as a ref making a decision either. I dont see many witch hunts after games for a player who kick an easy wide.
Though I do agree that it is impossible to keep everyone happy in these situations. That's not what im saying this would achieve. I believe that at least the moderate neutrals watching a game could gain respect from a bit of referee feedback. How many times have you listened to one side of an argument and automatically vilified the other person because of haven't heard theirs?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/01/2017 14:52:50
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In rugby there is a clear communication process with the officials both for players during the game, and management after the game.
During the game all communication is through the captains and any abuse is not tolerated. Refs are assessed after each game and the team management must also submit their thoughts to the assessor. When mistakes are made they are acknowledged (no replays - just a promise to try do better next time). Because of this it feeds into the players behavior etc In GAA my belief is players would except bad decisions more readily if they believed issues would be properly addressed. The frustration of feeling like your banging your head against a brick wall has to play a part in some of the over the top reactions during games. If managers got feedback from the referees assessor after all games it would go a long way to address things. This should also be accompanied by a zero tolerance for certain types of behavior on the field. All the above being said until clubs police their own and stop blindly standing by their man nothing will work. I was on a committee once that suspended our own player for verbal abuse of a referee. A lot of people in the club didn't agree (he was a star player) but it sent out a message.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts:167 - 06/01/2017 14:52:29There is a clear communication process with players but there isn't anything of a sort with coaches after games. Referees at pro level are assessed in each and every game but team management don't submit their thoughts to assessors at all,.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/01/2017 14:54:18
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Umpires are virtually useless as regards contributing to the games and need to be more involved in making decisions. Have them trained up to refereeing standards and be allowed to issue frees and cards inside the 21 yard line as they are best placed to see this especially in hurling where you can have a ref caught 60 yards out the field. Perhaps 2 referees involved, one in each half is another alternative to what is there now. Why not try and make improvements it's the only way things can move forward. If you don't mind me saying, I find your replies and posts to be lased with a condescending attitude towards a lot of posters. This needs to be addressed going forward in 2017 or you'll be getting a red card.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1125 - 06/01/2017 16:40:14Having umpires with the authority to sanction or at least tell ref more about infringements would work but you ideally would have to have all umpires go through a training/qualification to allow this occur.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/01/2017 14:55:51
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what do you mean by 'make a call'? a ref should not be calling anything he is not sure of so therefore answering questions should be easy enough. Even if they did get the odd one wrong and came out afterwards and held their hands up and admit they got it wrong i believe there would be more empathy from managers, players and supporters. It beats running away and hiding until the next game comes round with all the baggage of the previous game still bubbling under the surface.
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1110 - 06/01/2017 21:08:50Having a referee answer questions isn't right. Are players to answer questions on every decision they make in a game
Are you answerable for every single decision you make in work?
Refereeing is a hard enough job as it is. Making them do this would make the job 1000 times harder and referees don't run away and hide until the next game. If mistakes are made they go to their training sessions/development meetings and work on how to improve themselves.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/01/2017 15:01:49
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It's easy to be sure of a call in hindsight when the analysts have looked at 5 different slomo playbacks. A ref makes a call in what he sees in a split second and has to go with his instinct and his experience.To suggest he should then come out and explain himself is just plain stupidity.Can you point out one match where a ref hasn't made a mistake with the benefit of look back or camera assistance and what difference an explanation would do anyone.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1125 - 07/01/2017 10:21:59Yep. Ref makes a split second call from one angle and once decides to blow the whistle the decision is made and cannot be changed. Totally agree with your post
a ref should only call what he or his officials are convinced of seeing. Being afraid or having the confidence to make a call as you put it shouldn't really be in the mindset of a referee. If its a split second incident that neither the ref or his team can confirm was a foul or whatever then its play on. The tough part for a ref is staying focused for 70 plus minutes in order to deal with these issues. A ref could have the confidence to make calls but they could be the wrong calls if the focus and good practice arent there then what good is that? I have also yet to hear a good reason why it is wrong for a ref to answer a few question post match?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1110 - 07/01/2017 10:45:35So a ref has to be entirely sure of what happens. A ref shouldn't have to be interviewed after games about decisions they make in games because it will lead to referees being more hesitant to make decisions in games just in case they are wrong and they will be grilled by the media after the game.
Have you ever attempted to referee a game in any sport and know how difficult it is? As if you had im sure you wouldn't be suggesting referees to do this.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 07/01/2017 15:07:15
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