National Forum

Disrespectful attitude to referees and winning teams

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post

Something that is regularly trotted out by Supporters and often the argument for a loss, is that referees are the cause of this because they are giving the winners preferential treatment I remember hearing this being leveled at Kilkenny when they were in their pomp and it always smacked of the bad looser maintality. Dublin seem to be getting the fingers pointed in their direction also now but apart from insulting to these two great sides it is utterly disrespectful to the men who put so much effort into our games and are doing their best under trying circumstances. Yes, they make mistakes but there is often the underlying suggestion that it is deliberate favouritism which is grossly unfair I feel. God knows I will shout and roar at the men in black as much as the next lad but I don't think they are corrupted as is being suggested in some quartets.

catch22 (USA) - 04/01/2017 18:59:52    1943095

Link

Replying To catch22:  "Something that is regularly trotted out by Supporters and often the argument for a loss, is that referees are the cause of this because they are giving the winners preferential treatment I remember hearing this being leveled at Kilkenny when they were in their pomp and it always smacked of the bad looser maintality. Dublin seem to be getting the fingers pointed in their direction also now but apart from insulting to these two great sides it is utterly disrespectful to the men who put so much effort into our games and are doing their best under trying circumstances. Yes, they make mistakes but there is often the underlying suggestion that it is deliberate favouritism which is grossly unfair I feel. God knows I will shout and roar at the men in black as much as the next lad but I don't think they are corrupted as is being suggested in some quartets."
For me referees are influenced and can make poor decisions , they are also guilty of inconsistency and incapable of using common sense , however complete agree that to accuse a ref of deliberate favouritism is grossly disrespectful , there have been refs when I found out they were the man in the middle I'd pull my hair out going back more years than I care to remember to Seamus Aldridge .Truth is we probably under performed when he was in charge and God we love a fall guy , ref , coach or a certain player etc Other point raised Top teams getting the breaks I'd have to say they get more 50 -50 s but I wouldn't think for a second a top believes that during the game .

Damothedub (Dublin) - 04/01/2017 22:20:02    1943138

Link

Disrespectful attitude to referees and winning teams
Something that is regularly trotted out by Supporters and often the argument for a loss, is that referees are the cause of this because they are giving the winners preferential treatment I remember hearing this being leveled at Kilkenny when they were in their pomp and it always smacked of the bad loser maintality. Dublin seem to be getting the fingers pointed in their direction also now but apart from insulting to these two great sides it is utterly disrespectful to the men who put so much effort into our games and are doing their best under trying circumstances. Yes, they make mistakes but there is often the underlying suggestion that it is deliberate favouritism which is grossly unfair I feel. God knows I will shout and roar at the men in black as much as the next lad but I don't think they are corrupted as is being suggested in some quartets.
catch22 (USA) - Posts:115 - 04/01/2017 18:59:52
I dont like this either. I wouldnt call it being a bad loser but just poor sportsmanship. Totally agree with what you are saying.


For me referees are influenced and can make poor decisions, they are also guilty of inconsistency and incapable of using common sense, however complete agree that to accuse a ref of deliberate favouritism is grossly disrespectful, there have been refs when I found out they were the man in the middle I'd pull my hair out going back more years than I care to remember to Seamus Aldridge. Truth is we probably under performed when he was in charge and God we love a fall guy, ref, coach or a certain player etc
Other point raised Top teams getting the breaks I'd have to say they get more 50 -50 s but I wouldn't think for a second a top believes that during the game.
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts:3618 - 04/01/2017 22:20:02
Of course referees can make poor decisions and be guilty of inconsistency they are human. Every player, coach and every person in general is the exact same.
Agree with you otherwise

ormondbannerman (Clare) - 05/01/2017 01:18:22    1943157

Link

But then when is the correct time voice your concerns about referees? A couple of years ago in a game my team won we got 3 concussions. When it was mentioned about teams being over physical and dangerous it was said that we won so shouldn't be giving out. Next Game we lost and had a player put in hospital. When it was said then it was sour grapes. I agree referees need to be protected but there should be a detailed review carried out every year at the very least involving the county managers and the referees board to go through decisions/concerns that have arisen over the course of the year. I feel on a game by game basis would be overkill and over scrutinising it.

dstuction (Donegal) - 05/01/2017 09:14:06    1943167

Link

Would be interesting to hear opinions of referees /former referees. 1. Are referees as people influenced by crowds? Anecdotal evidence would be proportion of league matches won by the home side. 2. Is the area a referee lives and works in an influence? maybe subconsciously without intention? Note the GAA recognise this by appointing referees from neutral provinces for Championship matches where possible. Also see what happens when a referee is appointed to referee a neighbouring county against someone from a different part of the country. 3. Is it fair to expect someone to make an important decision under time pressure and under the glare of the general public and the media? The use of video refs/ bank up ref on the line for consultation is an obvious improvement for trial and fine tuning before general roll out.

Ashrules (Dublin) - 05/01/2017 09:37:58    1943170

Link

Replying To catch22:  "Something that is regularly trotted out by Supporters and often the argument for a loss, is that referees are the cause of this because they are giving the winners preferential treatment I remember hearing this being leveled at Kilkenny when they were in their pomp and it always smacked of the bad looser maintality. Dublin seem to be getting the fingers pointed in their direction also now but apart from insulting to these two great sides it is utterly disrespectful to the men who put so much effort into our games and are doing their best under trying circumstances. Yes, they make mistakes but there is often the underlying suggestion that it is deliberate favouritism which is grossly unfair I feel. God knows I will shout and roar at the men in black as much as the next lad but I don't think they are corrupted as is being suggested in some quartets."
Totally agree, i've never bought the strong teams get more referring decisions. What I've always found with GAA is that if a team is a few points behind that the ref is more inclined to give them a few soft scoreable frees.

realman2 (Kildare) - 05/01/2017 10:04:55    1943179

Link

I'll admit that a referees job is as high pressure as it gets in sport and that it is virtually impossible to give every correct decision. There is enough debate on here about major decisions to prove that. However, I do believe there is a serious lack of communication between referees and everyone else. Managers and to a lesser extent players live and die by their decisions and have to face the media and answer questions about their performances. Where as referees seem to be a protected species. If they would explain why they made certain calls it might relieve some of the controversy that surrounds certain games. It also might make them think twice about making a call that they are not 100% sure of, if they knew they had to explain it later on.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - 05/01/2017 15:05:39    1943264

Link

But then when is the correct time voice your concerns about referees? A couple of years ago in a game my team won we got 3 concussions. When it was mentioned about teams being over physical and dangerous it was said that we won so shouldn't be giving out. Next Game we lost and had a player put in hospital. When it was said then it was sour grapes. I agree referees need to be protected but there should be a detailed review carried out every year at the very least involving the county managers and the referees board to go through decisions/concerns that have arisen over the course of the year. I feel on a game by game basis would be overkill and over scrutinising it. dstuction (Donegal) - Posts:1075 - 05/01/2017 09:14:06I think through appropriate channels. How are referees trained? Do they get regular meetings and training? When other than in matches do they get training on decision making, rules of the game etc? Coaches should have yearly/seasonly meetings with head of referees to clarify rules/what referees want from teams but when you say detailed review what do you mean by that? Would be interesting to hear opinions of referees /former referees. 1. Are referees as people influenced by crowds? Anecdotal evidence would be proportion of league matches won by the home side. 2. Is the area a referee lives and works in an influence? maybe subconsciously without intention? Note the GAA recognise this by appointing referees from neutral provinces for Championship matches where possible. Also see what happens when a referee is appointed to referee a neighbouring county against someone from a different part of the country. 3. Is it fair to expect someone to make an important decision under time pressure and under the glare of the general public and the media? The use of video refs/ bank up ref on the line for consultation is an obvious improvement for trial and fine tuning before general roll out. Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts:123 - 05/01/2017 09:37:58Home teams win majority of games in all sports not due to referees being influenced but more because being used to venue etc. Speaking as a referee no. Where i live and work does not play an influence at all. I have refereed my own club in games, rugby at age grade and womens rugby, and it wont be an influence. Yes it is fair to expect referees to make decisions under time pressure and under glare of general public/media. What isnt fair is the obcessive reaction to all decisions. A video ref would be worthwhile in looking at for inter county but IMO the bigger issues with officials are at club level and introducing video refs makes no changes there I'll admit that a referees job is as high pressure as it gets in sport and that it is virtually impossible to give every correct decision. There is enough debate on here about major decisions to prove that. However, I do believe there is a serious lack of communication between referees and everyone else. Managers and to a lesser extent players live and die by their decisions and have to face the media and answer questions about their performances. Where as referees seem to be a protected species. If they would explain why they made certain calls it might relieve some of the controversy that surrounds certain games. It also might make them think twice about making a call that they are not 100% sure of, if they knew they had to explain it later on. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1099 - 05/01/2017 15:05:39No "virtually" about it. Its impossible to get every decision correct in a game for referees and every player. What communication do you want between referees and everyone else? In no sport should referees have to explain why they give each decision. Explanations should only be made if there is confusion on the actual rules of the game.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - 05/01/2017 16:05:42    1943280

Link

Replying To Ashrules:  "Would be interesting to hear opinions of referees /former referees. 1. Are referees as people influenced by crowds? Anecdotal evidence would be proportion of league matches won by the home side. 2. Is the area a referee lives and works in an influence? maybe subconsciously without intention? Note the GAA recognise this by appointing referees from neutral provinces for Championship matches where possible. Also see what happens when a referee is appointed to referee a neighbouring county against someone from a different part of the country. 3. Is it fair to expect someone to make an important decision under time pressure and under the glare of the general public and the media? The use of video refs/ bank up ref on the line for consultation is an obvious improvement for trial and fine tuning before general roll out."
i have no doubt that refs can be influenced by the 'home' crowd and I believe that there was at least one championship game last year, in the qualifiers, where that was the case. So called weaker teams in Gaelic games, as in all sports, have always tended to get most of the bad decisions against them and this is highlighted year after year. In response to a question posed by a poster above, if a person feels that he cannot make decisions under time pressure he, sure as hell, should not become a ref.

neverright (Roscommon) - 05/01/2017 16:07:49    1943285

Link

Replying To ormondbannerman:  "But then when is the correct time voice your concerns about referees? A couple of years ago in a game my team won we got 3 concussions. When it was mentioned about teams being over physical and dangerous it was said that we won so shouldn't be giving out. Next Game we lost and had a player put in hospital. When it was said then it was sour grapes. I agree referees need to be protected but there should be a detailed review carried out every year at the very least involving the county managers and the referees board to go through decisions/concerns that have arisen over the course of the year. I feel on a game by game basis would be overkill and over scrutinising it. dstuction (Donegal) - Posts:1075 - 05/01/2017 09:14:06I think through appropriate channels. How are referees trained? Do they get regular meetings and training? When other than in matches do they get training on decision making, rules of the game etc? Coaches should have yearly/seasonly meetings with head of referees to clarify rules/what referees want from teams but when you say detailed review what do you mean by that? Would be interesting to hear opinions of referees /former referees. 1. Are referees as people influenced by crowds? Anecdotal evidence would be proportion of league matches won by the home side. 2. Is the area a referee lives and works in an influence? maybe subconsciously without intention? Note the GAA recognise this by appointing referees from neutral provinces for Championship matches where possible. Also see what happens when a referee is appointed to referee a neighbouring county against someone from a different part of the country. 3. Is it fair to expect someone to make an important decision under time pressure and under the glare of the general public and the media? The use of video refs/ bank up ref on the line for consultation is an obvious improvement for trial and fine tuning before general roll out. Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts:123 - 05/01/2017 09:37:58Home teams win majority of games in all sports not due to referees being influenced but more because being used to venue etc. Speaking as a referee no. Where i live and work does not play an influence at all. I have refereed my own club in games, rugby at age grade and womens rugby, and it wont be an influence. Yes it is fair to expect referees to make decisions under time pressure and under glare of general public/media. What isnt fair is the obcessive reaction to all decisions. A video ref would be worthwhile in looking at for inter county but IMO the bigger issues with officials are at club level and introducing video refs makes no changes there I'll admit that a referees job is as high pressure as it gets in sport and that it is virtually impossible to give every correct decision. There is enough debate on here about major decisions to prove that. However, I do believe there is a serious lack of communication between referees and everyone else. Managers and to a lesser extent players live and die by their decisions and have to face the media and answer questions about their performances. Where as referees seem to be a protected species. If they would explain why they made certain calls it might relieve some of the controversy that surrounds certain games. It also might make them think twice about making a call that they are not 100% sure of, if they knew they had to explain it later on. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1099 - 05/01/2017 15:05:39No "virtually" about it. Its impossible to get every decision correct in a game for referees and every player. What communication do you want between referees and everyone else? In no sport should referees have to explain why they give each decision. Explanations should only be made if there is confusion on the actual rules of the game."
but why would it be a problem to explain a decision? is there something wrong with clarity?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - 05/01/2017 17:41:47    1943301

Link

Replying To neverright:  "i have no doubt that refs can be influenced by the 'home' crowd and I believe that there was at least one championship game last year, in the qualifiers, where that was the case. So called weaker teams in Gaelic games, as in all sports, have always tended to get most of the bad decisions against them and this is highlighted year after year. In response to a question posed by a poster above, if a person feels that he cannot make decisions under time pressure he, sure as hell, should not become a ref."
Was that the Mayo v Fermanagh qualifier? Mayo got a controversial penalty late in the game to win.

thelongridge (Offaly) - 05/01/2017 17:48:01    1943302

Link

Yeah , the lot of a referee is a difficult one and when you have a few thousand amateur refs in the crowd it doesn't make for an easy afternoon.There needs to be more responsibility placed with linesmen and umpires getting training and given more input also.Along with this I'd stop refs bringing along the lads from home as umpires and replace them with fully trained ref standard umpires who get more input and power to help with giving direction to referee. Their has to be more help given to referees as they are being asked to do a thankless job but are also being overburdened with responsibility. I don't believe they set out to help one team over another but the focus on decisions made is always likely to be scrutinised more for the winning team and every 50 / 50 decision magnified as if it was the reason they won. If you look at every AI winners record you can be sure you'll find plenty of games where they got calls for and against that were questionable.Again, more help needs to be given to these guys.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - 05/01/2017 17:54:20    1943304

Link

Replying To ormondbannerman:  "But then when is the correct time voice your concerns about referees? A couple of years ago in a game my team won we got 3 concussions. When it was mentioned about teams being over physical and dangerous it was said that we won so shouldn't be giving out. Next Game we lost and had a player put in hospital. When it was said then it was sour grapes. I agree referees need to be protected but there should be a detailed review carried out every year at the very least involving the county managers and the referees board to go through decisions/concerns that have arisen over the course of the year. I feel on a game by game basis would be overkill and over scrutinising it. dstuction (Donegal) - Posts:1075 - 05/01/2017 09:14:06I think through appropriate channels. How are referees trained? Do they get regular meetings and training? When other than in matches do they get training on decision making, rules of the game etc? Coaches should have yearly/seasonly meetings with head of referees to clarify rules/what referees want from teams but when you say detailed review what do you mean by that? Would be interesting to hear opinions of referees /former referees. 1. Are referees as people influenced by crowds? Anecdotal evidence would be proportion of league matches won by the home side. 2. Is the area a referee lives and works in an influence? maybe subconsciously without intention? Note the GAA recognise this by appointing referees from neutral provinces for Championship matches where possible. Also see what happens when a referee is appointed to referee a neighbouring county against someone from a different part of the country. 3. Is it fair to expect someone to make an important decision under time pressure and under the glare of the general public and the media? The use of video refs/ bank up ref on the line for consultation is an obvious improvement for trial and fine tuning before general roll out. Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts:123 - 05/01/2017 09:37:58Home teams win majority of games in all sports not due to referees being influenced but more because being used to venue etc. Speaking as a referee no. Where i live and work does not play an influence at all. I have refereed my own club in games, rugby at age grade and womens rugby, and it wont be an influence. Yes it is fair to expect referees to make decisions under time pressure and under glare of general public/media. What isnt fair is the obcessive reaction to all decisions. A video ref would be worthwhile in looking at for inter county but IMO the bigger issues with officials are at club level and introducing video refs makes no changes there I'll admit that a referees job is as high pressure as it gets in sport and that it is virtually impossible to give every correct decision. There is enough debate on here about major decisions to prove that. However, I do believe there is a serious lack of communication between referees and everyone else. Managers and to a lesser extent players live and die by their decisions and have to face the media and answer questions about their performances. Where as referees seem to be a protected species. If they would explain why they made certain calls it might relieve some of the controversy that surrounds certain games. It also might make them think twice about making a call that they are not 100% sure of, if they knew they had to explain it later on. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1099 - 05/01/2017 15:05:39No "virtually" about it. Its impossible to get every decision correct in a game for referees and every player. What communication do you want between referees and everyone else? In no sport should referees have to explain why they give each decision. Explanations should only be made if there is confusion on the actual rules of the game."
You obviously put a lot of faith in your own self-evaluation. That appears to be a problem with some refs.

neverright (Roscommon) - 05/01/2017 19:21:34    1943323

Link

I can understand most of the above and they are perfectly reasonable reactions to the games we are passionate about. I've heard fellas and women shouting stuff that they would probably prefer to forget at games and God knows I'd be guilty of an outburst or two myself.However when it's all said and done I doubt many of us would do nearly as good a job as the majority of the refs who we level some silly stuff at.I'd be surprised to hear anyone seriously suggesting a ref set out deliberately to do them out of a game.

catch22 (USA) - 05/01/2017 19:54:43    1943332

Link

i have no doubt that refs can be influenced by the 'home' crowd and I believe that there was at least one championship game last year, in the qualifiers, where that was the case. So called weaker teams in Gaelic games, as in all sports, have always tended to get most of the bad decisions against them and this is highlighted year after year. In response to a question posed by a poster above, if a person feels that he cannot make decisions under time pressure he, sure as hell, should not become a ref. neverright (Roscommon) - Posts:585 - 05/01/2017 16:07:49Any player can be influenced by outside factors. Just like any person in any job. Weaker teams will likely get less decisions but that is the same in all sports. I understand what the op was trying to say about time pressure and they are right. Referees cant be expected to be correct each and every time as that isnt possible... but why would it be a problem to explain a decision? is there something wrong with clarity? SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1101 - 05/01/2017 17:41:47What do you mean by explain a decision? Do you want it done like it happens in american football or what exactly. In rugby we as referees have signals and will tell infringing players why the penalty is awarded against them but what do you want GAA refs to do? Yeah, the lot of a referee is a difficult one and when you have a few thousand amateur refs in the crowd it doesn't make for an easy afternoon.There needs to be more responsibility placed with linesmen and umpires getting training and given more input also.Along with this I'd stop refs bringing along the lads from home as umpires and replace them with fully trained ref standard umpires who get more input and power to help with giving direction to referee. Their has to be more help given to referees as they are being asked to do a thankless job but are also being overburdened with responsibility. I don't believe they set out to help one team over another but the focus on decisions made is always likely to be scrutinised more for the winning team and every 50 / 50 decision magnified as if it was the reason they won. If you look at every AI winners record you can be sure you'll find plenty of games where they got calls for and against that were questionable.Again, more help needs to be given to these guys. Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1119 - 05/01/2017 17:54:20What extra training do you want umpires/linesmen to receive? What extra input and power would you give umpires? What extra help would you give to referees? Do referees attend referee meetings for training regularly? You obviously put a lot of faith in your own self-evaluation. That appears to be a problem with some refs. neverright (Roscommon) - Posts:585 - 05/01/2017 19:21:34What nonsense are you on about. Why wouldnt i put a lot of faith in my own self evaluation. As a referee(in rugby) i get assessed by very experienced former/current referees and they tell me after and at half time in the game they are appointed to watch me in what 3 things i most need to work on and then provide me with a full assessors report in days/weeks after the game. I can understand most of the above and they are perfectly reasonable reactions to the games we are passionate about. I've heard fellas and women shouting stuff that they would probably prefer to forget at games and God knows I'd be guilty of an outburst or two myself.However when it's all said and done I doubt many of us would do nearly as good a job as the majority of the refs who we level some silly stuff at.I'd be surprised to hear anyone seriously suggesting a ref set out deliberately to do them out of a game. catch22 (USA) - Posts:116 - 05/01/2017 19:54:43 What cliched nonsense(about passion/obsession!! But i agree with the overall gist of what you said

ormondbannerman (Clare) - 05/01/2017 21:19:59    1943351

Link

i really wish you'd give the 'post reply' botton a go and address each person individually instead of clogging up the page with a load of copy and paste muck, but anyways. I think GAA refs should put themselves forward for post match interviews the same as managers. A level of respect and understanding can be gained through listening to people. A lot more so than I believe exists in the game at present towards refs because nobody gets to hear their point of view on different incidents.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - 05/01/2017 23:51:07    1943385

Link

i really wish you'd give the 'post reply' botton a go and address each person individually instead of clogging up the page with a load of copy and paste muck, but anyways. I think GAA refs should put themselves forward for post match interviews the same as managers. A level of respect and understanding can be gained through listening to people. A lot more so than I believe exists in the game at present towards refs because nobody gets to hear their point of view on different incidents. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1103 - 05/01/2017 23:51:07Its the exact same thing. Posting a reply to those i qoute. Referees shouldnt be putting themselves forward for interview. That only leads to trouble. They shouldnt have to justify each and every decision they make in a game. Strange that many other sports can respect referees without hearing any viewpoint on why refs make the decisions they do. There would be greater respect for officials if people could just accept that once the whistle is blown a decision is made and cant be changed and giving verbal abuse just doesnt help.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - 06/01/2017 01:22:40    1943395

Link

Replying To ormondbannerman:  "i really wish you'd give the 'post reply' botton a go and address each person individually instead of clogging up the page with a load of copy and paste muck, but anyways. I think GAA refs should put themselves forward for post match interviews the same as managers. A level of respect and understanding can be gained through listening to people. A lot more so than I believe exists in the game at present towards refs because nobody gets to hear their point of view on different incidents. SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1103 - 05/01/2017 23:51:07Its the exact same thing. Posting a reply to those i qoute. Referees shouldnt be putting themselves forward for interview. That only leads to trouble. They shouldnt have to justify each and every decision they make in a game. Strange that many other sports can respect referees without hearing any viewpoint on why refs make the decisions they do. There would be greater respect for officials if people could just accept that once the whistle is blown a decision is made and cant be changed and giving verbal abuse just doesnt help."
your posts are the referees equivalent of speaking to a group of players at the one time as opposed to dealing with one player at a time, i hope you exercise better control on the field ;-)

SaffronDon (Antrim) - 06/01/2017 12:08:28    1943477

Link

I am trying to think of the last time I heard a manager, supporter, or player say those words "We were beaten by the better team". Unless it is a turkey shoot, the finger is pointed at the referee, the umpire, the linesman. What ever happened to taking your beating?

Pinkie (Wexford) - 06/01/2017 12:15:44    1943479

Link

your response seems a bit high handed to be honest. Why start comparing with other sports. be specific to GAA. A referee has a huge impact on games. You still haven't gave me a good reason why a ref shouldn't answer a few simple questions that im sure they'd have the answers to. clarity vs what?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - 06/01/2017 12:18:25    1943482

Link