National Forum

Qualifier Rd 1.5 - for a level playing field ?

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By keeping the Prov Championships intact, their unfairness can be overcome - After pLaying the existing format to and after Prov SF 16 and 1st Rd Qual Rd 16, all 16 losers enter Qual Rd 1.5, which is played in parallel with the Prov Finals. Then, 20-team Rd 2 consists of 4 Prov Final losers and 16 winners from Rds 1 or 1.5. The 4 Prov Champs playoff - 2 winners to the AI QFs - 2 losers to 12-team Rd 3. Finally, 6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI QFs. If the Muns and Conn SFs are two-legged, all counties are guaranteed a 3-match minimum.

omahant (USA) - 08/10/2016 19:18:10    1924102

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Why do you love posting such convulated competition structures? That would be a terrible structure and doesn't aid anyone

ormondbannerman (Clare) - 08/10/2016 20:22:39    1924116

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Replying To ormondbannerman:  "Why do you love posting such convulated competition structures? That would be a terrible structure and doesn't aid anyone"
Not often i agree with you but you hit the nail on the head here.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - 08/10/2016 21:04:42    1924121

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By keeping the Prov Championships intact, their unfairness can be overcome - After pLaying the existing format to and after Prov SF 16 and 1st Rd Qual Rd 16, all 16 losers enter Qual Rd 1.5, which is played in parallel with the Prov Finals. Then, 20-team Rd 2 consists of 4 Prov Final losers and 16 winners from Rds 1 or 1.5. The 4 Prov Champs playoff - 2 winners to the AI QFs - 2 losers to 12-team Rd 3. Finally, 6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI QFs. If the Muns and Conn SFs are two-legged, all counties are guaranteed a 3-match minimum. omahant (USA) - Posts:830 - 08/10/2016 19:18:10 1 This proposal has serious merit, maybe the other posters didn't read it carefully, as they seemed overly dismissive. I get what omahant strived to achieve here, basically a way to keeping the Provincial Championships in their current form, reducing the number of Qualifier matches, and guaranteeing all County teams 3 Championship games. Also by having the 4 Provinicial Champions face off prior to the All Ireland Quarter Final, we should be getting a greater number of high profile matches earlier in the Championship. This proposal would give the GAA a solution to some of its biggest Championship structure problems, this is probably the best structure I have seen yet. Fair play omahant.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - 08/10/2016 22:52:42    1924144

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I think the GAA needs to move away from the qualifiers system completely. It makes it very hard to schedule club games as when you're due to play is dependent on results. There is a problem with the qualifier 1.5 also. Winning through to a semifinal isn't rewarded. The qualifier 1.5 is actually a worse round to enter at than qualifier 1 where teams get a double chance to progress.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 09/10/2016 08:40:38    1924163

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think the GAA needs to move away from the qualifiers system completely. It makes it very hard to schedule club games as when you're due to play is dependent on results. There is a problem with the qualifier 1.5 also. Winning through to a semifinal isn't rewarded. The qualifier 1.5 is actually a worse round to enter at than qualifier 1 where teams get a double chance to progress."
I suggested on a previous thread a few months back, that there should only be a 2 week gap between Inter-county games, which would help compact the Provincial & All Ireland Championships. This would free up more space for Club League and Championship games, maybe allow a more concrete Club schedule to be put in place. Scrap the National league Semi finals and play league matches over 8 consecutive weeks. Inter-County Season Pre-Season Tournament 3-5 games - Play over 3 weeks. National League 7-8 games - Play over 8 weeks. Provincial Championships 3-4 games - Play over 6-8 weeks. All Ireland Series 3 games - Play over 6 weeks. TOTAL = 23 - 25 Weeks of County Games. Club Championship On average 6 or 7 games for a Senior Club Championship - Play over 12 - 14 weeks, Season length = 35 - 39 weeks, with Club league matches and of course Sigerson Cup to be considered. That's a mental season for somebody who plays for both a club and County that goes the distance. Personally I would scrap the National League in it's current form, It takes up a large chunk of the Calendar.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - 09/10/2016 12:32:54    1924192

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Replying To GaryMc82:  "I suggested on a previous thread a few months back, that there should only be a 2 week gap between Inter-county games, which would help compact the Provincial & All Ireland Championships. This would free up more space for Club League and Championship games, maybe allow a more concrete Club schedule to be put in place. Scrap the National league Semi finals and play league matches over 8 consecutive weeks. Inter-County Season Pre-Season Tournament 3-5 games - Play over 3 weeks. National League 7-8 games - Play over 8 weeks. Provincial Championships 3-4 games - Play over 6-8 weeks. All Ireland Series 3 games - Play over 6 weeks. TOTAL = 23 - 25 Weeks of County Games. Club Championship On average 6 or 7 games for a Senior Club Championship - Play over 12 - 14 weeks, Season length = 35 - 39 weeks, with Club league matches and of course Sigerson Cup to be considered. That's a mental season for somebody who plays for both a club and County that goes the distance. Personally I would scrap the National League in it's current form, It takes up a large chunk of the Calendar."
I don't understand what is mental about your system. It sounds vastly superior to the current system where players are playing the same number of games but over a 48 week period. All the while training, training, training. A big problem in the GAA isn't the number of games. It's an overtraining culture. The big change I'd make to intercounty football is to play it all off in 22 weeks. March until August bank holiday. Similar number of games as now but teams are training less for those games. In that time club players play league without championship players. Every club championship starts on 2nd weekend in August. Every team knows that every year. All Ireland club is played to completion by the end of the year. The split club season of playing a few games in April and not playing again until September is a farce. Any other talk of formats etc is just really not that important. The calendar needs fixed then we can sort the details out. Those 22 weeks contain 5 bank holidays, perfect for getting families out watching inter county football. July/August bank holiday is the perfect time for playing the climax to the season before Soccer and Rugby start back.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 09/10/2016 13:08:47    1924196

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To Whammo86 - Currently, Muns/Conn SF bye teams are guaranteed a Last 24 spot, bypassing Qual Rd 1 where the initial 8 teams are eliminarted (unfair). Existing Qual Rd 1 has 12 Prov QF losers with one last chance (unfair) while a Prov QF winner is no better off than the Muns SF bye team. To neutralize the QF loss disadvantage, I treat the QF participants as equals with the Muns bye team - win or loss (I agree, not much advantage to win, but advancing in Prov) both QF teams advance to one of the 16s (Prov SFs or 1st Rd Qual) with two chances to make the Last 24 (win Prov SF, Qual Rd 1 or Rd 1.5). With 8 teams out in Rd 1.5, 20 teams in Rd 2 (say, Open Draw) need two wins to enter AI QFs, while 4 Prov Champs can make it with a win in either of two matches (Playoff or Rd 3). Clun scheduling can be accomodated by keeping srrict adherence to the A and B sides of the draw and scrapping replays. There is nothing new to my idea here - I'm describing 'Treble Chance' in a new way.

omahant (USA) - 09/10/2016 17:36:05    1924241

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Replying To omahant:  "To Whammo86 - Currently, Muns/Conn SF bye teams are guaranteed a Last 24 spot, bypassing Qual Rd 1 where the initial 8 teams are eliminarted (unfair). Existing Qual Rd 1 has 12 Prov QF losers with one last chance (unfair) while a Prov QF winner is no better off than the Muns SF bye team. To neutralize the QF loss disadvantage, I treat the QF participants as equals with the Muns bye team - win or loss (I agree, not much advantage to win, but advancing in Prov) both QF teams advance to one of the 16s (Prov SFs or 1st Rd Qual) with two chances to make the Last 24 (win Prov SF, Qual Rd 1 or Rd 1.5). With 8 teams out in Rd 1.5, 20 teams in Rd 2 (say, Open Draw) need two wins to enter AI QFs, while 4 Prov Champs can make it with a win in either of two matches (Playoff or Rd 3). Clun scheduling can be accomodated by keeping srrict adherence to the A and B sides of the draw and scrapping replays. There is nothing new to my idea here - I'm describing 'Treble Chance' in a new way."
Sounds something like legendzxix would write ;)

Donegalman (None) - 09/10/2016 20:00:52    1924277

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Relatively simple relatively fair structure coming up. Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 09/10/2016 22:45:35    1924322

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Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1030 - 09/10/2016 22:45:3 Again, this is another very good suggestion. The one aspect I preferred from Omahant's version, was seeing the 4 Provincial Champions clash prior to the All Ireland Quarter final. That would give the GAA the increased number of high profile Championship matches they crave, and give the general public more close tight knit battles to watch.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - 10/10/2016 13:04:46    1924477

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Replying To GaryMc82:  "Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1030 - 09/10/2016 22:45:3 Again, this is another very good suggestion. The one aspect I preferred from Omahant's version, was seeing the 4 Provincial Champions clash prior to the All Ireland Quarter final. That would give the GAA the increased number of high profile Championship matches they crave, and give the general public more close tight knit battles to watch."
Also, currently to get to the AI QFs, the Prov SF 16 (incl Muns/Conn bye teams) need to win 2 matches, but the 1st Qual Rd 16 must win four. My idea has all requiring three from these stages (Prov SF, Final, Playoff, or Quals Rds 1 OR 1.5 along with 2 and 3), as well as any crossover entry point after a Prov loss). There is still an advantage in winning a Prov QF and being in the Prov SF 16 - teams keep the double chance up to the AI QFs, while the 1st Rd Qual 16 has get two chances for only one rd (to the AI Last 24). To polish this further - how should the Qual Rd draws be conducted - I say - For Rd 1, have a North 8 and South 8 (better to have Carlow Laois than Carlow Cavan); In Rd 1.5 (best 8 NFL ranked seeded as opposed to Prov SF losers); then Rd 2, a 20-team Open Draw (mouthwatering); in Rd 3 (lowest 6 NFL ranked from Rd 2 drawn away); and finally, in AI QF draw (4 low NFL ranked from Rd 3 kept apart in Croke Park or away in the Provs).

omahant (USA) - 10/10/2016 16:54:42    1924613

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Replying To GaryMc82:  "Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1030 - 09/10/2016 22:45:3 Again, this is another very good suggestion. The one aspect I preferred from Omahant's version, was seeing the 4 Provincial Champions clash prior to the All Ireland Quarter final. That would give the GAA the increased number of high profile Championship matches they crave, and give the general public more close tight knit battles to watch."
It's strange a round where the provincial champions play off was suggested a few years back. I believe it went to congress and was shot down. The group stage provincials with 12 teams going to the AI series can easily be modified to incorporate a round with provincial champions. The last 8 can easily be modified so that they play the 2 groups of 4 format change the GAA are already proposing. I think the group stage as described would be better received than the current qualifiers. Can be played off more quickly so that teams are waiting around to play their next game. Antrim this year had to wait around for 6 weeks to play their qualifier after losing to Fermanagh. That's a bit of a farce. With the group stage theirs no need for seeding either, it's easy to ensure that a 1st place team and 2nd place team from the same group can't meet until the final. The Ulster championship in particular would be class with an extra 6 big matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 13/10/2016 17:13:38    1925841

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Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=GaryMc82:  "Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1030 - 09/10/2016 22:45:3 Again, this is another very good suggestion. The one aspect I preferred from Omahant's version, was seeing the 4 Provincial Champions clash prior to the All Ireland Quarter final. That would give the GAA the increased number of high profile Championship matches they crave, and give the general public more close tight knit battles to watch."
It's strange a round where the provincial champions play off was suggested a few years back. I believe it went to congress and was shot down. The group stage provincials with 12 teams going to the AI series can easily be modified to incorporate a round with provincial champions. The last 8 can easily be modified so that they play the 2 groups of 4 format change the GAA are already proposing. I think the group stage as described would be better received than the current qualifiers. Can be played off more quickly so that teams are waiting around to play their next game. Antrim this year had to wait around for 6 weeks to play their qualifier after losing to Fermanagh. That's a bit of a farce. With the group stage theirs no need for seeding either, it's easy to ensure that a 1st place team and 2nd place team from the same group can't meet until the final. The Ulster championship in particular would be class with an extra 6 big matches."]Yes, the Prov Champs Rd was shot down. This was the brainchild of Mickey Harte, who argued it would be better that 2 Champs are guaranteed AI SF slots with the 2 losing Champs playing 2 Qualifiers in the AI QFs. Personally, I don't believe this '2+2' is any fairer than what we have now - each stream is simply extended by one round preserving the imbalance. Fairness is better achieved by increasing the Qualifiers' representation in the AI QFs, as this is a 'national' stream, not subject to different Prov quantities. So, I pitch '2+6' as a better balance - but to achieve this, I agree - I have watered down the importance of a Prov QF victory (although keeps the double chance to the AI QFs).

omahant (USA) - 13/10/2016 19:40:23    1925879

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Replying To omahant:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GaryMc82:  "Connacht 2 groups of 3 (after NY game), 2 from each group into SF. Group winners get home semifinals. Munster same as Connacht. Ulster 3 groups of 3. 2 from each group into 6 team knockout round. Top 2 group winners getting a bye to semifinals. Leinster 3 groups, 2 of 4 and 1 of 3. Last in each group eliminated so that 8 teams advance to quarter finals. Quarter finals seeded based on group performance. All Ireland series 12 teams, 4 from Ulster and Leinster, 2 from Munster and Connacht. Provincial champions bye to quarterfinals. Other 8 teams playoff for remaining QF places. All teams get at least 1 home tie every season. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1030 - 09/10/2016 22:45:3 Again, this is another very good suggestion. The one aspect I preferred from Omahant's version, was seeing the 4 Provincial Champions clash prior to the All Ireland Quarter final. That would give the GAA the increased number of high profile Championship matches they crave, and give the general public more close tight knit battles to watch."
It's strange a round where the provincial champions play off was suggested a few years back. I believe it went to congress and was shot down. The group stage provincials with 12 teams going to the AI series can easily be modified to incorporate a round with provincial champions. The last 8 can easily be modified so that they play the 2 groups of 4 format change the GAA are already proposing. I think the group stage as described would be better received than the current qualifiers. Can be played off more quickly so that teams are waiting around to play their next game. Antrim this year had to wait around for 6 weeks to play their qualifier after losing to Fermanagh. That's a bit of a farce. With the group stage theirs no need for seeding either, it's easy to ensure that a 1st place team and 2nd place team from the same group can't meet until the final. The Ulster championship in particular would be class with an extra 6 big matches."]Yes, the Prov Champs Rd was shot down. This was the brainchild of Mickey Harte, who argued it would be better that 2 Champs are guaranteed AI SF slots with the 2 losing Champs playing 2 Qualifiers in the AI QFs. Personally, I don't believe this '2+2' is any fairer than what we have now - each stream is simply extended by one round preserving the imbalance. Fairness is better achieved by increasing the Qualifiers' representation in the AI QFs, as this is a 'national' stream, not subject to different Prov quantities. So, I pitch '2+6' as a better balance - but to achieve this, I agree - I have watered down the importance of a Prov QF victory (although keeps the double chance to the AI QFs)."]The system I outline gets close to a fair QF representation based on team numbers. 1.5 for Munster and Connacht, 2.5 each for Ulster and Leinster. That's treating the play off round as half a spot. Ulster gets a little more representation, Leinster a little less.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 13/10/2016 20:00:32    1925884

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Fair enough - I like proportionate allocation of slots for a fair system - for variety, I also like more of a mix of inter-prov pairings - which you have offered in prior posts

omahant (USA) - 13/10/2016 21:30:53    1925914

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Replying To omahant:  "Fair enough - I like proportionate allocation of slots for a fair system - for variety, I also like more of a mix of inter-prov pairings - which you have offered in prior posts"
I think realistically there isn't much public appetite for qualifiers. People are interested in the local rivalry aspect and that's why the provincial championships are still popular even though a lot of the games aren't as evenly matched as some qualifiers. Main change needs to be a 14 week championship. May bank holiday to August bank holiday. Get the matches played off and let the clubs go at it from then on.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 14/10/2016 05:29:02    1926024

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think realistically there isn't much public appetite for qualifiers. People are interested in the local rivalry aspect and that's why the provincial championships are still popular even though a lot of the games aren't as evenly matched as some qualifiers. Main change needs to be a 14 week championship. May bank holiday to August bank holiday. Get the matches played off and let the clubs go at it from then on."
Agreed - or your link to NFL over 22-26 weeks, like you had before.

omahant (USA) - 14/10/2016 14:04:57    1926242

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Did a draw for the group stages of my system Ulster A Antrim Donegal Down B Monaghan Fermanagh Tyrone C Cavan Armagh Derry Group A probably most clear cut. Donegal would fancy being 1 of the 2 best group winners and getting a bye to the semis, Down would expect to go through. The 6 matches in the other 2 groups are all good games on paper. Leinster A Carlow Louth Longford Wicklow B Dublin Kildare Offaly Westmeath C Meath Laois Wexford Leinster QF would 1st A v 3rd B, 1st B v 3rd A, 1st C v 2nd A/B (based on team with the lesser record), 2nd A/B (team with better record) v 2nd C Semifinal pairings would keep 1st and 2nd place teams from the group apart Topping group A would be huge, you'd probably get an Offaly or Westmeath in the QF Dublin would still steam roll everyone at present but at least reaching the semifinal gets you into the AI series. I think you're breathing life into the Leinster championship Connacht A London Sligo Galway B Mayo Roscommon Leitrim Munster A Kerry Cork Clare B Tipperary Waterford Limerick Munster and Connacht the championships are more balanced, the top 2 teams should make the final. If they meet in the group stage they avoid each other in the semis. Clare have a wicked draw but they could easily get a handy enough one also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 15/10/2016 11:48:44    1926429

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Seed the quarter finals. Pair teams who have avoided division 1 opposition or played only 2 games. This would most likely pair Kerry, mayo or Dublin together in a quarter giving them the much needed big game practice which they are crying out for. There will be nor should there be any need for change if this happened.

Donegalman (None) - 15/10/2016 14:13:32    1926454

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