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Replying To TheHermit: "Aye, this market is full of the current All-Ireland holders = greatest team in history who cares about anything before last September merchants. I guess it just reflects the way modern society is - the cult of now, the tendency to dismiss anything that's 5 minutes old, 'post-truth' and all that stuff.
A few posters however have hit the nail on the head. At the moment we have one very good team and 2-3 of their closest opponents that have big flaws. I include Kerry in that as we didn't lay a finger on Dublin in the final in 2015. We didn't turn up and deserved to be beaten that day.
But even then there was a few serious issues with the referring that game. Same as last August. I remembered reading a piece about the 1916 All-Ireland Championship and in one of the semi-finals Monaghan refused to play Wexford because the referee picked for the clash was from Leinster and they were concerned over any possible bias. The GAA relented and changed the referee.
Contrast that to 2 or 3 of the referee's appointed for last few Kerry/Dublin Championship matches - fella's living and working in Dublin, some of them members of Dublin GAA clubs with one of them having previously been brought in to referee Dublin's A v B games! I'm not accusing any of these men of deliberately and consciously favoring Dublin in a game but you can't tell me its right to be chosen to officiate a game when you are that closely involved in the GAA community of one of the teams." Its enough to want to make you throw your programme at the ref. :)
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/01/2017 22:22:27
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "It only takes a grain of rice to tip the scales realdub as well you know ;-)" :D ah Kingdomboy1, if ye put 4 or 5 goals past us during the match, even the greatest rogue ref in the game couldn't swing that one!
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8586 - 03/01/2017 22:36:00
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Replying To TheUsername: "I think this thread is an indicator of the frustration of many fans praticularly kerry mate, that I can understand on living on the wrong side of the equation vs Kerry for a few years. All the excuses in the world whether it's population, finance, weather, refs, Croke park don't change the silverware on the mantle peice arguement. I can understand it, it was always an accusation of very good Kerry teams that they had to play two games to win an all ireland.
I disagree with your general point though mate, I agree that teams were a lot closer together in the noughties, but I do beleive Dublin have taken the standard to a different level again, I don't necessarily think praticularly This Kerry team is bad certainly 2011 and 2013 were high quality teams, just a shade below Dublins standard. The fact remains this Dublin team put the Kerry and Tyrone noughties teams to bed in 2011 and have bet every challenge the country had to offer over many years. My original point was that I can understand fans getting misty eyed about the noughties, certainly there were teams of a similar standard, but the bar has been raised and no one has met that standard yet.
When comparing "eras" if there even that because many of the Same players from the noughties are still playing, or great teams, the blemish Kerry have is they only were successfull when they dodged the great Tyrone team." I wasn't making excuses? Maybe you have me confused with another poster? I actually said in my post that we were fairly beaten by a better team on each occasion.
On the point I was making, I'll put it this way to you. How many of the current (2013-2016) Kerry team would get on the 00's team, or the Tyrone 00's team? Enright, JOD or Geaney (not both) and possibly Murphy. That's about it. We don't have the players we once had. I know you want to believe that Dublin have simply raised the bar and you're beating the equivalent of the great Kerry sides of old but the fact is that Kerry have dropped way off. Even at that it's usually the strength of the Dublin bench that carries the day for ye. Tyrone, Armagh and Cork are nowhere near their 00's level either. Mayo are competitive but lack the class in the forwards to get over the line. Donegal 2012 were outstanding but couldn't maintain it. You're delusional as to the level of competition Dublin are up against.
They are a fine, fine side, don't get me wrong, but they are lucky to be having their purple patch while all the other traditional football powers are struggling. They were there for the taking this year, but the paucity of the opposition they faced saw them to another All Ireland.
As to whether Kerry or Tyrone were the team of the 00's I think history will show Tyrone as the better team. I think their style suited playing us at that time. Kerry were the more successful team over the course of the decade so it depends what way you look at it. They were fairly evenly matched. Do also remember that in 2005 and 2008 Kerry were going for 2 and 3 in a row respectively. They were probably good times to face us in a final, but we were beaten fair and square each time, no question.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 03/01/2017 23:02:46
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Replying To TheUsername: "Its enough to want to make you throw your programme at the ref. :)" It would be a fine thing if you could afford a program . Some people have to pay big money to travel to matches.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/01/2017 23:08:08
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "I wasn't making excuses? Maybe you have me confused with another poster? I actually said in my post that we were fairly beaten by a better team on each occasion.
On the point I was making, I'll put it this way to you. How many of the current (2013-2016) Kerry team would get on the 00's team, or the Tyrone 00's team? Enright, JOD or Geaney (not both) and possibly Murphy. That's about it. We don't have the players we once had. I know you want to believe that Dublin have simply raised the bar and you're beating the equivalent of the great Kerry sides of old but the fact is that Kerry have dropped way off. Even at that it's usually the strength of the Dublin bench that carries the day for ye. Tyrone, Armagh and Cork are nowhere near their 00's level either. Mayo are competitive but lack the class in the forwards to get over the line. Donegal 2012 were outstanding but couldn't maintain it. You're delusional as to the level of competition Dublin are up against.
They are a fine, fine side, don't get me wrong, but they are lucky to be having their purple patch while all the other traditional football powers are struggling. They were there for the taking this year, but the paucity of the opposition they faced saw them to another All Ireland.
As to whether Kerry or Tyrone were the team of the 00's I think history will show Tyrone as the better team. I think their style suited playing us at that time. Kerry were the more successful team over the course of the decade so it depends what way you look at it. They were fairly evenly matched. Do also remember that in 2005 and 2008 Kerry were going for 2 and 3 in a row respectively. They were probably good times to face us in a final, but we were beaten fair and square each time, no question." Very balanced and fair post mate, I apologise if I came across as sharp which wasn't my intention.
I do still disagree with your broad point though, Was the team defeated in 2011 very different from the team of the noughties in quality, the Kerry team of 2013 semi was also a high quality team. The team that hammered Dublin by a cricket score in 09 was not very different in personal. Again in 2011 Dublin defeated Tyrone featuring most of their All Ireland winners. I think many forget that in the development of this team. Football didn't suddenly end in 2011 simply the bar was set higher. In the intervening years and praticularly Galvin years the standard has gone up again, Dublin have done things no other county has in terms of developing the game, from kick outs, sweeper system, developing squad depth, coaching, tactics and matching quality with athleticism. I think it's visable in how teams have tried to mimick the Dublin set up, only this week after it became known that Dublin were doing in it, other counties are playing their U21s/fringe players in their "OByre Cup".
When you drill down structurally your dealing with a serious outfit that has evolved the game and raised a standard, the noughties were the noughties but their is a different standard now to meet, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say the quality has dropped I think the standard has just changed. It will change again and we will be left behind, but here and now it's up to other counties.
Personally I think Kerry would be dominant this decade if not for Dublin, so I just think their is a bigger kid on the block right now.
Part of me would love to play the Kerry team and Tyrone team of the early noughies with this group, as good as 11 and 13 were, that would be a classic contest.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/01/2017 23:42:22
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "I wasn't making excuses? Maybe you have me confused with another poster? I actually said in my post that we were fairly beaten by a better team on each occasion.
On the point I was making, I'll put it this way to you. How many of the current (2013-2016) Kerry team would get on the 00's team, or the Tyrone 00's team? Enright, JOD or Geaney (not both) and possibly Murphy. That's about it. We don't have the players we once had. I know you want to believe that Dublin have simply raised the bar and you're beating the equivalent of the great Kerry sides of old but the fact is that Kerry have dropped way off. Even at that it's usually the strength of the Dublin bench that carries the day for ye. Tyrone, Armagh and Cork are nowhere near their 00's level either. Mayo are competitive but lack the class in the forwards to get over the line. Donegal 2012 were outstanding but couldn't maintain it. You're delusional as to the level of competition Dublin are up against.
They are a fine, fine side, don't get me wrong, but they are lucky to be having their purple patch while all the other traditional football powers are struggling. They were there for the taking this year, but the paucity of the opposition they faced saw them to another All Ireland.
As to whether Kerry or Tyrone were the team of the 00's I think history will show Tyrone as the better team. I think their style suited playing us at that time. Kerry were the more successful team over the course of the decade so it depends what way you look at it. They were fairly evenly matched. Do also remember that in 2005 and 2008 Kerry were going for 2 and 3 in a row respectively. They were probably good times to face us in a final, but we were beaten fair and square each time, no question." I agree with your post 100% geniusGerry.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/01/2017 23:51:51
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "It would be a fine thing if you could afford a program . Some people have to pay big money to travel to matches." Ha no one lives in Kerry these days mate, their all up here playing for Crokes and Plunkets, trying to make a bob or two by selling a couple of books. :)
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 04/01/2017 00:05:30
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id be intrested to hear the kerry view of the ref in the mayo v kerry all ireland semi replay in limerick in 2014?
kavvie (Clare) - Posts: 505 - 04/01/2017 09:26:00
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Replying To kavvie: "id be intrested to hear the kerry view of the ref in the mayo v kerry all ireland semi replay in limerick in 2014?" I think you'll find as usual the selective amnesia applies in these cases.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 04/01/2017 09:56:53
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Replying To TheUsername: "Very balanced and fair post mate, I apologise if I came across as sharp which wasn't my intention.
I do still disagree with your broad point though, Was the team defeated in 2011 very different from the team of the noughties in quality, the Kerry team of 2013 semi was also a high quality team. The team that hammered Dublin by a cricket score in 09 was not very different in personal. Again in 2011 Dublin defeated Tyrone featuring most of their All Ireland winners. I think many forget that in the development of this team. Football didn't suddenly end in 2011 simply the bar was set higher. In the intervening years and praticularly Galvin years the standard has gone up again, Dublin have done things no other county has in terms of developing the game, from kick outs, sweeper system, developing squad depth, coaching, tactics and matching quality with athleticism. I think it's visable in how teams have tried to mimick the Dublin set up, only this week after it became known that Dublin were doing in it, other counties are playing their U21s/fringe players in their "OByre Cup".
When you drill down structurally your dealing with a serious outfit that has evolved the game and raised a standard, the noughties were the noughties but their is a different standard now to meet, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say the quality has dropped I think the standard has just changed. It will change again and we will be left behind, but here and now it's up to other counties.
Personally I think Kerry would be dominant this decade if not for Dublin, so I just think their is a bigger kid on the block right now.
Part of me would love to play the Kerry team and Tyrone team of the early noughies with this group, as good as 11 and 13 were, that would be a classic contest." That's fair to say. Dubs have raised the bar in terms of overall approach, fitness and conditioning, tactic etc. Most of the other teams are following suit and have adapted, and a lot of teams have come close to Dublin by doing this. The game is constantly evolving. This has always been the case though. The 00's saw the evolution of the blanket defense for example.
The fall in standards that I was talking about is more about personnel. Look at the team-sheets of Tyrone, Kerry, Cork, Armagh, Meath and Galway throughout the 00's and tell me they have the same standard of players available today? Systems and fitness are only one side of the story, and won't get you all that far without the personnel to implement them. In Kerry we would kill to have a young Seamus Moynihan, Daragh Ó'Se or Declan O'Sullivan right now for example. Dublin beat Tyrone and Kerry in 2011, when both had many players that were past their best. Wind the clock back five years and you could have had a couple of very different contests. The personnel was probably similar enough to the 00's teams but the legs were quite a bit older.
I really don't want to come across as trying to knock Dublin's success btw. They have a super team that would have been successful at any time. They'd be a match for Kerry, Tyrone or anybody else for that matter. Their squad depth is also a huge asset and has been the difference in many key matched (Costello kicking three points off the bench in this years final is a good example) over the years.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 04/01/2017 10:02:49
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Replying To kavvie: "id be intrested to hear the kerry view of the ref in the mayo v kerry all ireland semi replay in limerick in 2014?" If we took a few of the many chances we missed we'd have beaten them. Crying about the ref is avoiding that fact.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 04/01/2017 10:39:31
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fair enough and admirable point of view but if the ref didnt make 6/7 errors that favoured kerry at vital times mayo would have won. the mcloughlin easy option tap over the bar when straight through was particularly galling looking back on it..but the two soft frees given to kerry in extra time and the non sending off of shane enright early on were bigger influences on the result..
kavvie (Clare) - Posts: 505 - 04/01/2017 11:03:36
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It's the only point of view to have if you want to improve. We didn't score enough. No team who wants to progress sits down for the next season saying if it weren't for the ref we'd be All Ireland Champions. The refereeing decisions were not within our control. Scoring more goals or points is within our control. That's what we have to work on.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 04/01/2017 11:19:04
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "That's fair to say. Dubs have raised the bar in terms of overall approach, fitness and conditioning, tactic etc. Most of the other teams are following suit and have adapted, and a lot of teams have come close to Dublin by doing this. The game is constantly evolving. This has always been the case though. The 00's saw the evolution of the blanket defense for example.
The fall in standards that I was talking about is more about personnel. Look at the team-sheets of Tyrone, Kerry, Cork, Armagh, Meath and Galway throughout the 00's and tell me they have the same standard of players available today? Systems and fitness are only one side of the story, and won't get you all that far without the personnel to implement them. In Kerry we would kill to have a young Seamus Moynihan, Daragh Ó'Se or Declan O'Sullivan right now for example. Dublin beat Tyrone and Kerry in 2011, when both had many players that were past their best. Wind the clock back five years and you could have had a couple of very different contests. The personnel was probably similar enough to the 00's teams but the legs were quite a bit older.
I really don't want to come across as trying to knock Dublin's success btw. They have a super team that would have been successful at any time. They'd be a match for Kerry, Tyrone or anybody else for that matter. Their squad depth is also a huge asset and has been the difference in many key matched (Costello kicking three points off the bench in this years final is a good example) over the years." There is also no end to this argument either.
If the Galway team were a bit younger in the mid 00s they could have denied either kerry or tyrone an all ireland. If Armagh were a bit younger in 2006 they could have won another all ireland (in 2005 they were pipped at the post in the semis by a point by tyrone and could have won that game too).
Conversely, if there were no back door, it would have been a very interesting championship in the 00s, you most likely would have had either Dublin, Meath or cork coming through to win sam at least once. (Who knows, even poor old mayo could have won an all ireland in 2006 for this reason). 5 Of the all irelands were won courtesy of the back door.
Ultimately, this topic is an interesting 'what if' topic, but has absolutely no merit when it comes to history books.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 04/01/2017 12:46:52
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Replying To TheUsername: "Very balanced and fair post mate, I apologise if I came across as sharp which wasn't my intention.
I do still disagree with your broad point though, Was the team defeated in 2011 very different from the team of the noughties in quality, the Kerry team of 2013 semi was also a high quality team. The team that hammered Dublin by a cricket score in 09 was not very different in personal. Again in 2011 Dublin defeated Tyrone featuring most of their All Ireland winners. I think many forget that in the development of this team. Football didn't suddenly end in 2011 simply the bar was set higher. In the intervening years and praticularly Galvin years the standard has gone up again, Dublin have done things no other county has in terms of developing the game, from kick outs, sweeper system, developing squad depth, coaching, tactics and matching quality with athleticism. I think it's visable in how teams have tried to mimick the Dublin set up, only this week after it became known that Dublin were doing in it, other counties are playing their U21s/fringe players in their "OByre Cup".
When you drill down structurally your dealing with a serious outfit that has evolved the game and raised a standard, the noughties were the noughties but their is a different standard now to meet, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say the quality has dropped I think the standard has just changed. It will change again and we will be left behind, but here and now it's up to other counties.
Personally I think Kerry would be dominant this decade if not for Dublin, so I just think their is a bigger kid on the block right now.
Part of me would love to play the Kerry team and Tyrone team of the early noughies with this group, as good as 11 and 13 were, that would be a classic contest." From the 2009 Kerry team to the 2011 Kerry team we were missing triple all star goalie diarmuid Murphy double all star centrback Mike McCarthy 6 time all star midfielder Darragh o'sé Afl winner and all star Tadhg Kennelly and double young player of the year and all star tommy Walsh , that's 1/3 of a team missing not to mention a great sub like Sean O'sullivan retired as well plus player of the year in 09 Paul Galvin was only a sub in 2011.
So there was a big difference in our 09 team to our 11 team. Big big difference.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 04/01/2017 13:10:25
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Replying To kavvie: "id be intrested to hear the kerry view of the ref in the mayo v kerry all ireland semi replay in limerick in 2014?" That's missing the point of my own and KYBoy's posts. Kerry (like every team) have sometimes benefited from referee decisions and other times have not.
What we have said is:
A) There has been a significant number of questionable refereeing decisions being given to Dublin against us in 3 of the last 4 Championship encounters.
B) Each of those 3 games were referred by officials who have very strong connections to Dublin, considering their work place, the fact some of them are members of Dublin clubs and, as I already mentioned, at least one of them was actually involved in the Dublin team's A v B games in training. Now how that is allowed is beyond me and it should not be acceptable.
Because let me tell you, if there was some Cork official who worked and lived in Killarney, was a member of a Kerry club and had been referring Kerry training games brought in to do a Kerry/Dublin match there would be uproar and rightly so. Either its one rule for all of us or to hell with it.
P.S. any Mayo fan blaming the referee for yer loss in Limerick that day needs to seriously re-evaluate the actual causes for Mayo's defeat such as poor management decisions at critical times, a failure to take vital scores and simply bad luck when it came to the clash of heads involving A O'Se etc. And considering ye used every trick in the book to get Lee Keegan's red card rescinded for it I don't really think you can be having a go at us.
At least in Kerry we take our suspensions something Dublin and Mayo should be forced to do!!
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 04/01/2017 13:20:15
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Replying To Donegalman: "There is also no end to this argument either.
If the Galway team were a bit younger in the mid 00s they could have denied either kerry or tyrone an all ireland. If Armagh were a bit younger in 2006 they could have won another all ireland (in 2005 they were pipped at the post in the semis by a point by tyrone and could have won that game too).
Conversely, if there were no back door, it would have been a very interesting championship in the 00s, you most likely would have had either Dublin, Meath or cork coming through to win sam at least once. (Who knows, even poor old mayo could have won an all ireland in 2006 for this reason). 5 Of the all irelands were won courtesy of the back door.
Ultimately, this topic is an interesting 'what if' topic, but has absolutely no merit when it comes to history books." Of course you are correct. It's not really about 'what if's' though. I was responding to the assertion that the standard of competition is equivalent now to what it was in the 00's and that Dublin have simply raised the bar. Maybe they have to an extent, but there is no way there is the same level of competition. The likes of Meath, Armagh and Galway have dropped off the radar entirely, and most of the other perennial contenders have serious issues and weaknesses throughout their squad / team. Donegal 2012 is the only team that really convinced in this decade, (apart from Dublin obviously) and they could only maintain that effort for one year.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 04/01/2017 14:08:28
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Replying To TheHermit: "That's missing the point of my own and KYBoy's posts. Kerry (like every team) have sometimes benefited from referee decisions and other times have not.
What we have said is:
A) There has been a significant number of questionable refereeing decisions being given to Dublin against us in 3 of the last 4 Championship encounters.
B) Each of those 3 games were referred by officials who have very strong connections to Dublin, considering their work place, the fact some of them are members of Dublin clubs and, as I already mentioned, at least one of them was actually involved in the Dublin team's A v B games in training. Now how that is allowed is beyond me and it should not be acceptable.
Because let me tell you, if there was some Cork official who worked and lived in Killarney, was a member of a Kerry club and had been referring Kerry training games brought in to do a Kerry/Dublin match there would be uproar and rightly so. Either its one rule for all of us or to hell with it.
P.S. any Mayo fan blaming the referee for yer loss in Limerick that day needs to seriously re-evaluate the actual causes for Mayo's defeat such as poor management decisions at critical times, a failure to take vital scores and simply bad luck when it came to the clash of heads involving A O'Se etc. And considering ye used every trick in the book to get Lee Keegan's red card rescinded for it I don't really think you can be having a go at us.
At least in Kerry we take our suspensions something Dublin and Mayo should be forced to do!!" Dublin beat ye cos they were better than ye.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 04/01/2017 15:24:56
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Dublin beat ye cos they were better than ye.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts:3149 - 04/01/2017 15:24:56 1943049
You seriously need educating on the Kerry narrative Green and Red!
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 04/01/2017 16:10:11
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Every Dublin defeat of Kerry since 2011 has been explained away by some as a grand refereeing conspiracy.
In those games I'm sure Dublin benefited from some refereeing decisions going our way. The same way that in those games Kerry got some decisions that they should not have gotten too. The same way that in every game ever played the same thing has happened.
If Dublin had have lost the games from 2011-2016 there would be certain Dublin people on feeling very sore about those decisions that went against us and in favour of Kerry. I'm sure of that too. It's what some people do.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13705 - 04/01/2017 16:18:50
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