You're right Gary, black is really white.... now does that sooth your desire to be always right or does your ego need massaged a touch more!
Why would you bother with that statement? You don't even reference particular points to which you refer, you just make a mad statement suggesting I am somehow not calling a spade a spade, yet I have been clear and consistent on every point I every raised. Be factual, don't just rant.

Oh and the only Antrim man to have bad mouthed Derry or any other ulster county in was UM.
Ulsterman is just somebody's alter-ego profile, brought out to make more controversial comments.

Its worrying though to hear you are the only one to have looked into the project in detail.....I really don't know what the design team who are currently sitting less than 20 yards from me are doing. But hey i'll forward your contact details sure if you want, ive no doubt they'll be delighted to hear from you and your faultless proposal
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1456 - 07/11/2016 14:36:36

Well I assume the architectural Casement Park design team, which coincidentally you (who are strongly in favour of the proposed Stadium) are apparently quite close to ( 20yards / 60 feet by your estimates), would normally be tasked with creating a facility/project design within a given space/area and meeting certain site specific planning criteria.

But who makes the actual call on where to locate the Stadium in the first place, prior to actual Stadium design?
Normally I would expect it to be the Ulster GAA council, then ratified by the GAA central committee. However in this particular case, It seems to be the British Government with the support of the Shinners. The GAA seem to be held to ransom, basically a "Build it here or lose the money" ultimatum was delivered.

Was a initial in-depth study carried out and published to see which location was most suitable for an Ulster Provincial Stadium to serve the 9 Counties? No, neither the GAA or British Government carried out such an survey/study. The needs of the GAA fans from across the province were not considered, nor where the problems fans complained about for years when travelling to Clones.

Was the Casement Park site deemed the most suitable, logistical and cost effective option?
It clearly isn't suitable in terms of cost, logistics, or parking etc, in fact it is arguably the most unsuitable site in Ulster to be a Provincial Stadium.
The basic details that should be considered when looking to build a Provincial Stadium, where purposely ignored here.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/11/2016 15:32:28    1932401

B&M are doing a good offer on tinfoil at the moment if anyone is interested.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 07/11/2016 15:46:45    1932410

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 07/11/2016 16:06:48    1932422

B&M are doing a good offer on tinfoil at the moment if anyone is interested.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts:3154 - 07/11/2016 15:46:45

Didn't think any supporter of the current Casement Park proposal was interested in Value for Money ;)

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/11/2016 16:22:05    1932432

Yeah offside I don't know why I got involved again ffs!

Btw the design team said to put your complaint in writing to the Ulster Council, Central Council, all 9 Ulster County Boards, DFC, DFP, DFI and Belfast City Council, WRB and all associated rugby boards in no particular order!
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1457 - 07/11/2016 16:06:48 19

If you work alongside them, is it possible you or your company have a vested financial interest in this project, as well as the obvious parochial Interest? The plot thickens!!

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/11/2016 16:32:15    1932438

bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts: 361 - 07/11/2016 16:39:00    1932440

No there hasn't, you've played the victim card on the illusion that everybody from outside Belfast hates West Belfast. Ignoring the key point that some people do not favour West Belfast because of its geographical unsuitability.

what geographic unsuitability? there are two motorways linking north and south to the Casement site (the home of the most highly congested hub of GAA clubs in Ireland, Dublin included). I have said this many times before of course but with you I might as well be telling the dog!

None of you have put forward facts to support this being the Provincial Stadium of Ulster, you have all put forward Parochial reasons, talking of the benefits to the local area.


what you mean the site that used to be the provincial football ground of choice until The Troubles and the site that was Ulster hurling final venue until it closed three years ago? that's a bigger fact than any of your feeble opinions that you like to dress as facts, but sure whatever makes you feel better...

Do you not see the Irony in how your all one here everyday debating this, even though you say nobody wants to continue this debate anymore!!

yes, I do and I've fallen victim to it again. More fool me!!

I easily won the debate on whether the proposed Casement Park is the most suitable or carefully thought out, as this current Casement Park proposal has never once considered the logistics involved for the people of the 9 Counties who will use it.

does this childish point scoring give you an extra couple of inches or something? The fact that you then came off with Casement being the most unsuitable venue in Ulster, just proves your ignorance once again. I've been to all county grounds in Ulster at one time or another and you are talking utter tripe. Another fact, I suppose!!

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 07/11/2016 16:57:44    1932447

what geographic unsuitability? there are two motorways linking north and south to the Casement site (the home of the most highly congested hub of GAA clubs in Ireland, Dublin included). I have said this many times before of course but with you I might as well be telling the dog!

Incorrect, reading that statement would lead somebody who didn't know better to believe there are sufficient motorways branching out of Belfast to all 9 Counties of Ulster. Great if travelling to Dublin, but not so good if travelling to/from places like Derry, Donegal, West Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan and parts of Monaghan. Keep in mind the Provincial nature of this, and its unsuitability becomes a lot clearer.

what you mean the site that used to be the provincial football ground of choice until The Troubles and the site that was Ulster hurling final venue until it closed three years ago? that's a bigger fact than any of your feeble opinions that you like to dress as facts, but sure whatever makes you feel better...

Yes that very site is unsuitable, we finally have a chance to address all of the key issues associated with Clones, but instead find we will made to suffer the same problems in a different location in another extreme. It is ridiculous.

does this childish point scoring give you an extra couple of inches or something? The fact that you then came off with Casement being the most unsuitable venue in Ulster, just proves your ignorance once again. I've been to all county grounds in Ulster at one time or another and you are talking utter tripe. Another fact, I suppose!!
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1000 - 07/11/2016 16:57:44 1932447

No, the point scoring just gives an Indication of how the debate is clearly balanced in my favour. While keep trying to make a joke of me, I am listing valid points about the suitability of the proposed Stadium.

Just look at it's intended Provincial purpose of Casement Park and then consider it's suitability in terms of
- Project cost - £77 million ( €86 million) - Crazy, when £25 million could gives us a suitable venue in a more suitable location.
- Travel from all 9 Counties, over 2 hours from a few different Counties, no improvement on Clones.
- Poor parking - Most fans must avail of Park & ride, which is a balls. Actually worst than Clones.
- Poor Growth Potential - Proposed Capacity has recently been reduced to pass planning, now approximately the same Capacity as Clones. Worst than a few grounds, which do have room to expand.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 07/11/2016 18:09:11    1932476

You're right Gary, black is really white.... now does that sooth your desire to be always right or does your ego need massaged a touch more!
Why would you bother with that statement? You don't even reference particular points to which you refer, you just make a mad statement suggesting I am somehow not calling a spade a spade, yet I have been clear and consistent on every point I every raised. Be factual, don't just rant.

No need to reference anything sure you always win the argument easily and will insist on having the last word, isn't that right??

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 08/11/2016 10:04:02    1932620

Just look at it's intended Provincial purpose of Casement Park and then consider it's suitability in terms of
- Project cost - £77 million ( €86 million) - Crazy, when £25 million could gives us a suitable venue in a more suitable location.
- Travel from all 9 Counties, over 2 hours from a few different Counties, no improvement on Clones.
- Poor parking - Most fans must avail of Park & ride, which is a balls. Actually worst than Clones.
- Poor Growth Potential - Proposed Capacity has recently been reduced to pass planning, now approximately the same Capacity as Clones. Worst than a few grounds, which do have room to expand.

are these more of your 'facts'? LOL

firstly, its not costing the GAA anything so your figures are false. Crazy would be spending £25m on giving Healy Park a face lift with no real modern feel to it when its done.

Those 2 hours you quote don't include country road traffic, so add several more million to your figures to improve the infrastructure if your going to quote less than 2 hours from that site.

Parking? more west Belfast ignorance, there are many places to park near the ground, ffs have you not been to Croker? you park out and walk in which beats the rural bottle neck any day.

The last point you made there is a very uneducated guess. So a suburban site has no potential for growth even though it will be used for other events. But a rural site used only for 4 or 5 matches a year, its sky's the limit wolf of Wall Street stuff? LOL your killing me with these 'facts' Gary. Just quote them a few more times and claim victory though. My corner has the towel ready to throw in!

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 08/11/2016 12:33:35    1932669

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 08/11/2016 13:01:07    1932683

No need to reference anything sure you always win the argument easily and will insist on having the last word, isn't that right??

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1458 - 08/11/2016 10:04:02

If Ulster GAA announced tomorrow that this is not Intended to be a Provincial Stadium, and purely a £77 million County Ground for Antrim GAA, I would say "Fair play you boys, best of luck". But Ulster GAA won't do that, because needing to justify such a project means dragging every high profile game in Ulster to that ground, regardless of unnecessary inconvenience or additional cost it puts on GAA fans.

It Isn't about my ego, for me it has always about finally doing right by the collective GAA fans of Ulster who deserve better, who after years of shelling out millions of funding, deserve consideration. The GAA can sometimes be a money hungry beast, despite bringing in many millions every year, but they need to realise that the fans rather than Governments or Sponsors are the major contributors and the most valuable asset of the Organisation. GAA fans should be considered first and foremost.

PURPOSE: This proposed Casement Park is Intended to be the Provincial Stadium of Ulster, not simply a County Ground for Antrim, and it is not fit for that Intended purpose.

FACTS

- SMALLER CAPACITY: Proposed Casement capacity now reduced 34,000 due to site limitations, now actually smaller than Clones with zero scope for expansion.

- POOR PARKING: The Proposed Casement has extremely limited parking, and most fans having to use a Park & Ride facility, It has substantially worst parking than Clones!!

- TRAVEL FROM ALL 9 COUNTIES: Fans from various parts of SW/West/NW Ulster will need approximately 2 hours to travel to Casement, this has not improved on Clones. A central located Provincial Stadium could see almost all fans reach it in an hour or less.

- EXCESSIVE COST: Proposed Casement will cost at least £77 million/€86 million, we could have 3 or 4 top quality upgraded Stadiums for £20-25 million each.

- ZERO BENEFIT OF BELFAST LOCATION FOR PROVINCIAL VENUE: Arguments for why a Provincial Stadium should be located in Belfast City are severely negated when considering that Provincial fans don't fly to matches (No need for airports), they rarely if ever stay overnight ( No need for hotel's or B&B's etc), they don't tend to have time on match day to take in the shopping, and post match traffic makes travelling into the City for food unattractive.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/11/2016 13:04:44    1932686

firstly, its not costing the GAA anything so your figures are false. Crazy would be spending £25m on giving Healy Park a face lift with no real modern feel to it when its done.

Well actually you are Incorrect there, the North is being granted Stadium funding from Britain, with both sides of the Community having to benefit from any such funding under Good Friday agreement sentiment. By locating the Stadium in Belfast, it is costing the GAA fans from right across Ulster a lot of additional cash every year.

Those 2 hours you quote don't include country road traffic, so add several more million to your figures to improve the infrastructure if your going to quote less than 2 hours from that site.

Well my proposed Omagh/Healy park site is set to benefit from the upcoming A5 Dual Carriageway, which will eventually run from Derry City to Monaghan, crossing the Belfast to Enniskillen route at Ballygawley. A large part of that funding is already designated, so incremental stage improvements are already set to proceed according to Ministers last Thursday.

Parking? more west Belfast ignorance, there are many places to park near the ground, ffs have you not been to Croker? you park out and walk in which beats the rural bottle neck any day.

Oh really, why the hell are they proposing "Park & Ride" if sufficient parking is already available. I have attended Croke Park quite a few times, and parking is readily available, and I haven't been asked to avail of a "Park & Ride" facility to Croker. Parking is exceptionally poor in West Belfast, and that is why it was highlighted in the intial safety review and also why the "Park & Ride" was suggested.

The last point you made there is a very uneducated guess. So a suburban site has no potential for growth even though it will be used for other events. But a rural site used only for 4 or 5 matches a year, its sky's the limit wolf of Wall Street stuff? LOL your killing me with these 'facts' Gary. Just quote them a few more times and claim victory though. My corner has the towel ready to throw in!
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts:1002 - 08/11/2016 12:33:35

Ah here we go with the "Other events", the Ace in your pack eh. You should be ashamed of yourself, the main reason to build a Stadium in Belfast is for other "Non GAA" events, what a joke. We will do anything for extra money eh!! The majority of the GAA's income comes from the GAA fans, try considering them when building GAA facilities.

It was not an uneducated guess, the capacity of the proposed Casement Park has been reduced to 34,000 people, that is a fact. Why was it reduced? So it can potentially meet Health and safety regulations. For that reason, It is unlikely that any expansion will take place in the next 30 years unless the residents are bought out or pushed out of their homes.

You can throw that towel in now,

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/11/2016 13:22:27    1932696

Btw the design team said to put your complaint in writing to the Ulster Council, Central Council, all 9 Ulster County Boards, DFC, DFP, DFI and Belfast City Council, WRB and all associated rugby boards in no particular order!
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts:1457 - 07/11/2016 16:06:48 19


Bumpernut,

You still haven't clarified your connection to the Proposed Casement Design team?

You mentioned you work in close proximity to them, possibly in the same building as you mentioned you speak with them.

Do you have a vested Interest in the Proposed Casement Park going ahead? Like does you employer stand to make money from this project in any way?

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 08/11/2016 13:32:33    1932698

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 08/11/2016 14:20:23    1932713

'I really do wonder how casement managed to hold big matches at all over the years given its not fit for purpose, particularly parking as it seems to really annoy some people. Somehow It's easier to park in a mucky field and eventually squeeze out on to a country road, then sit in traffic for half an hour before you get over 10mph.'

I'll stick this one up again as you somehow missed it earlier!

As for Park n ride id say it might be there to placate those GAA snobs who don't really want to set foot in west Belfast due to it being full of soccer fans and car thieves.
As for parking itself If you look at the latest consultancy document there is plenty of official car parking areas set aside for those brave enough to leave their cars unattended or they could really take a chance and do what they did in previous years and park on the footpaths and roads in the surrounding areas.....but of course you'll already know this given your in depth knowledge of the project and the area itself

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 08/11/2016 14:43:02    1932736

Ulster GAA, Central Council and Antrim County Committee remain firmly committed to the development of the new stadium The Project Board
continues to work closely with the planning and delivery teams to prepare a revised scheme for the stadium that ill: (i) develop and provide a worldclass stadium for the GAA in Belfast; (ii) enhance the local community; (iii) deliver a facility suitable for hosting club, county, provincial and national fixtures; and (iv) contribute to the economic and social development of Belfast and Ulster. A public consultation process is underway on new proposals. Following this comprehensive engagement process and consideration of the results and feedback of that work, Ulster GAA will
prepare and submit a planning application later in the year. One can only admire the determination and resilience of the Ulster Council, its Project Board and Antrim County Committee, as they strive to overcome various obstacles. Although completion of the project will extend far beyond the original timeline, the objective is a vital one for the Association and the major investment of time and energy worth the effort.

Gary I direct you to the Ard Stiúrthóirs report from last year, where does it say it will be the sole domain of all provincial games, which seems to be your main gripe. For £15M of the GAA's money we'll build casement with all its faults and invite anyone whom wishes to attend any games which are fortunate enough to be fixed there. Your £25M for Healy Park or whichever other crackpot idea you have simply isn't in the coffers as the GAA had only ever budgeted the £15M.

Your conspiracy theories of the UK governments to the English Rugby unions plans for a GAA stadium are amusing but wrong. This isn't a provincial project it is a national one hence central councils involvement and why wouldn't central council want modern stadia in Dublin, Belfast and Cork so whilst your utopian ideal of a central location may make sense logistically anyone whom has been sent to Thurles for All-Ireland semis and finals from the North coast will tell you that the distance teams and fans have to travel is nowhere near the top of the GAA's agenda.

This allied with the fact that outside of Ulster football and Munster hurling there is a growing chorus to revamp the provincials so would it make economic sense to build a stadium in the centre of a province which may in the not too distant future be the centre of nothing.

Anyway I'm off to be more parochial, down with that sort of thing!!!!!!!!

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 08/11/2016 15:50:12    1932757

As an outsider coming from a province with possibly too many 35,000 plus stadiums it strikes me that the new proposed capacity for Casement is too low. Its an inbetween number when Ulster surely needs 1 45-50,000 size stadium.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 08/11/2016 16:12:43    1932774

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 08/11/2016 19:28:19    1932842

Well actually you are Incorrect there, the North is being granted Stadium funding from Britain, with both sides of the Community having to benefit from any such funding under Good Friday agreement sentiment. By locating the Stadium in Belfast, it is costing the GAA fans from right across Ulster a lot of additional cash every year.

how much? £25m or anywhere near it? Once again you choose not to see the big picture. A major development is not decided on a few extra miles down the road for fans, even though that's not the case for many.

Well my proposed Omagh/Healy park site is set to benefit from the upcoming A5 Dual Carriageway, which will eventually run from Derry City to Monaghan, crossing the Belfast to Enniskillen route at Ballygawley. A large part of that funding is already designated, so incremental stage improvements are already set to proceed according to Ministers last Thursday.

yea come back in 10 years with your proposal for that one. With the amount of delays and mishaps before they've even broke ground on something that will take a lot longer to build than a stadium, that would be a real leap of faith at this stage.

Oh really, why the hell are they proposing "Park & Ride" if sufficient parking is already available. I have attended Croke Park quite a few times, and parking is readily available, and I haven't been asked to avail of a "Park & Ride" facility to Croker. Parking is exceptionally poor in West Belfast, and that is why it was highlighted in the intial safety review and also why the "Park & Ride" was suggested.

Dear...Lord! do you know how many park and rides are in Belfast? do you know you can still drive right into the city centre and get a parking space on any given day! they are there to help the flow of traffic and to give people options, not to be confused with calling an area a no go zone. I would have thought that was pretty basic logic. Clearly you haven't been near the Casement area if you can't identify the many parking areas that range from shopping centres to GAA clubs to residential housing. Another thing that has been stated on here many times before, but sure...

Ah here we go with the "Other events", the Ace in your pack eh. You should be ashamed of yourself, the main reason to build a Stadium in Belfast is for other "Non GAA" events, what a joke. We will do anything for extra money eh!! The majority of the GAA's income comes from the GAA fans, try considering them when building GAA facilities.

what do you have against a multi purpose stadium that will boost the economy? am I supposed to feel bad about that. I'd feel worse about a white elephant monstrosity sitting in rural Ulster gathering dust until June. Maybe you should try to consider GAA fans here who no doubt would travel for other events in Belfast. They're not all one dimensional tae drinkers you know.

It was not an uneducated guess, the capacity of the proposed Casement Park has been reduced to 34,000 people, that is a fact. Why was it reduced? So it can potentially meet Health and safety regulations. For that reason, It is unlikely that any expansion will take place in the next 30 years unless the residents are bought out or pushed out of their homes.

you know your getting desperate when your on the same level as certain Unionist MP's and a small group of pathetic handout merchants who couldn't tell you who won this years AI in either code. I know several residents from Owenvarragh/Mooreland and they are all in favour of the stadium however big they build it and are ashamed of the minority who know exactly what they are doing. Health and safety can be worked out just as expansion can but if the shoe fits you join Nelson McCausland and the benefit street boys in opposing it.

You can throw that towel in now,

toilet roll would be more appropriate

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2385 - 08/11/2016 20:14:24    1932867