GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 28/05/2016 14:04:05    1859560

Gary do you have the link to the number of GAA population per County in Ulster you are talking about as I would be keen to see the breakdown of figures. Just I know on the Mens Football front there is little difference in number of teams across juvenile and senior between Tyrone and Antrim but then when you start adding in the other areas of the GAA like Hurling, Camogie, ladies Football, Handball etc I would guess we in Antrim have a lot more on that front. Not to mention one Counties population is almost 4 times the other.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 28/05/2016 15:44:00    1859574

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 28/05/2016 17:06:50    1859582

Oh right so it's not really the definitive GAA Population you are talking about but someone's own interpretation based on their own defining criteria - namely signed up members.

I gathered my own very easy to come by data and my results show that not only has Antrim the biggest GAA population in Ulster but also the biggest number of closet GAA supporters so it seems they are right after all to put it in Belfast.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 28/05/2016 17:44:12    1859585

Gary, I can see you passionately believe in what you are posting and there's nothing wrong with that, debate is healthy. However on this topic I think you are in the club that still believes the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Antrim has 108 clubs third behind Dublin with 125 and Cork with 250 odd clubs so to say Antrim and Belfast hs

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9697 - 28/05/2016 18:21:12    1859593

Gary, I can see you passionately believe in what you are posting and there's nothing wrong with that, debate is healthy. However on this topic I think you are in the club that still believes the Earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. Antrim has 108 clubs third behind Dublin with 125 and Cork with 250 odd clubs so to say Antrim and Belfast has no GAA history or tradition is rhubarb. Casement WILL be redeveloped, fans from EVERY Ulster county will go there and it WILL be a good day out. The pub's, restaurants, clubs and businesses around Casement WILL pull out the stops to ensure that. Several years ago an Ulster select played an All Ireland select at Casement for the Michaela Harte Foundation. There was 20,000 at the game from EVERY part of Ireland. There were NO traffic problems, NO crowd problems, NO car theft problems and NO damage done. People who attended had a good night and there were fans in the bars and restaurants on the Falls, Andersonstown and Glen Roads.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9697 - 28/05/2016 18:31:06    1859595

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/05/2016 13:10:32    1859687

Gary, to say Antrim and Belfast has no GAA history or tradition is rhubarb.

I never once said or suggested in any post that Antrim or Belfast has no GAA history or tradition, you won't find so much as a hint of that in any post of mine. My argument is a straight call that Belfast is not the centre of Ulster's GAA population, and as the Provincial Stadium is supposed to serve the people of the province, it should be located accordingly.

Several years ago an Ulster select played an All Ireland select at Casement for the Michaela Harte Foundation. There was 20,000 at the game from EVERY part of Ireland. There were NO traffic problems, NO crowd problems, NO car theft problems and NO damage done. People who attended had a good night and there were fans in the bars and restaurants on the Falls, Andersonstown and Glen Roads.

I have never had an issue with Casement Park itself, and my argument against it being the Provincial Stadium never focused on weak chat of West Belfast car theft or damage etc. I don't have an issue with Antrim GAA having a quality stadium, or the quality of the bars and restaurants around West Belfast.

I simply argue against it being the Provincial Stadium of Ulster, as it is not best located to serve that purpose and this forum clearly supports that thinking. A Provincial Stadium does not need airports, shopping, restaurants etc, things that people would maybe avail of when making a long journey.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts:7933 - 28/05/2016 18:31:06 1

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 29/05/2016 13:29:30    1859690

Number of clubs is one thing, you are not taking into account actual Club membership, as well as County Season ticket holders.

Ultimately the majority of people attending games either hold season tickets or are club members buying their tickets through their club. Yes people can buy tickets through other outlets, but the vast majority of regular match goer's buy from club or season ticket in order to guarantee tickets. This defines Provincial GAA population more that anything else, an more accurate Indication of the number of people who regularly attend GAA Inter-county games.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts:2353 - 29/05/2016 13:10:32

Im sorry Gary but for me that would never pass as a population measure - that would be a bit like counting the number of burgers sold from all the burger vans to determine how many obese people attended a game. Where I would break that argument is with the example of (yes you guessed it) Antrim. Antrim would take as many of more to an Ulster Final as any Ulster county as seen in 2009 yet we have been starved of success to an extent where we are probably less likely to purchase season tickets etc as we are not seeing the big games. Or is your point that you wish to define GAA Population with on a rank based system where the measure is one that favours the more successful counties? Do we just assume will Antrim will not be contesting Ulster finals?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 29/05/2016 21:43:52    1859837

GaryMc82 you are clearly very moved by this and you seem to believe you have plenty of support. I just wonder as such why by now you have not mobilized your supporters to put some serious pressure on in aid of your proposals. Or if you have where did it all come unstuck? Regardless you do realise that spending a few years on this forum venting your displeasure is going to have minimal impact?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 29/05/2016 21:48:57    1859838

Though I should also have said credit where credit is due regarding this forum where you have consistently been taking on all comers.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 30/05/2016 08:29:31    1859845

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 30/05/2016 13:37:03    1859948

Im sorry Gary but for me that would never pass as a population measure - that would be a bit like counting the number of burgers sold from all the burger vans to determine how many obese people attended a game. Where I would break that argument is with the example of (yes you guessed it) Antrim. Antrim would take as many of more to an Ulster Final as any Ulster county as seen in 2009 yet we have been starved of success to an extent where we are probably less likely to purchase season tickets etc as we are not seeing the big games. Or is your point that you wish to define GAA Population with on a rank based system where the measure is one that favours the more successful counties? Do we just assume will Antrim will not be contesting Ulster finals?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts:1856 - 29/05/2016 21:43:52

No I have never once mentioned anything about Antrim not being successful or not being able to attract a crowd or anything remotely like that. Nor do I elude to a rank based system which favours the more successful counties, and think your burger comparison was as absurd as the Casement Proposal itself.

My opinion is as follows
A Provincial Stadium will have a maximum capacity of 30-40,000, so regardless of who can bring most supporters, no more than that maximum will get tickets. So who can bring more fans doesn't matter, as all will likely make good use of their allocation.
I believe all 9 Counties of Ulster could drum up enough fans for major games, and all 9 counties will have equal use of it. When looking at the average spread of GAA club members, Season ticket holders etc across the entire province, Tyrone would appear to be the happy medium in terms of locating such a Stadium in a location where all 9 Counties would have equal access to it.

If this stadium is truely a Ulster GAA Stadium, why can't we locate it somewhere that in convenient for the vast majority of Gael's. Have they not contributed millions in tickets and merchandise to the GAA over the years?

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 30/05/2016 13:55:25    1859952

Name one county where the county stadium isn't in the county town, are all county towns centrally located, are they my a**e. To make any stadium work it needs a potential audience with infrastructure, and the funding allied with the significantly larger population on the east coast of Ulster mean it will not go elsewhere.

It could still be a white elephant but at the end of the day the GAA get a modern stadium in a well populated area for minimal funding, they get to earn some dough from the IRFU world cup bid, and they can claim to be supporting GAA in Irelands second city.
duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts:114 - 27/05/2016 14:48:49 1859350

Monaghan for a start without even thinking outside the province.
I agree with most of what Gary has said but the deal as being done, part of a sectarian carve up that allowed Windsor Park & Ravenhill to receive similar grants. Done not for the good of the your average GAA follower in 9 county Ulster but so the Shinners can have something that they can show as making Stormont work. By all means upgrade Casement, it was badly in need of it and the Gaels of Belfast/Antrim deserve a good stadium, but like Omagh, The Athletic Grounds, Newry etc. why didn't the Antrim Co Board get its house in order and build a 20-30,000 stadium that would of served the needs of Antrim. Crazy place for locating Ulster Finals though, easily a two hour journey on a good day from south Cavan to Belfast, and nearer three hours from west Donegal. Never mind the parking chaos when you arrive there!

benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 30/05/2016 14:54:28    1859979

I have the utmost respect for the gaels of Antrim and good luck in building a better ground but its location is too far for some.

Take south Donegal for example : it would be a big ask for supporters to travel to Belfast for semis and finals. Its too far IMO .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 30/05/2016 21:06:38    1860140

Guys if it was to be that the stadium was located geographically in the centre of Ulster I would not have any complaints as it would do the job and ultimately any financial hit would not be directly out of my pocket. But I have said all along, and particularly emphasized when there was talk that Casement had hit a wall, there was never going to be an alternative as far as the process was concerned. You can say what you like about the way it came about but ultimately no other option was ever likely.

In terms of infrastructure, commercial potential of the venue, travel times, value added etc I still believe that Casement does have a lot of merit. Yes there are parts of the province that are a bit of a journey and I said it was Donegal folk I felt sorry for a year or two ago on this forum but we are a small Country let alone Province so realistically once or twice a year to Belfast is not going to require Christopher Columbus to plan the expedition. I have family in Cavan who have said they can get back quicker from a game In Casement than Clones. Journey aside, which I admit favours a geographically central stadium (but only on the assumption that major infrastructure investment is secured to stop it being another Clones bottleneck) I believe every other consideration for modern stadia favours Belfast.

Gary you say that Antrim posters are the only ones on here fighting for Belfast and this is because of the parochial outlook from us. I would say that is more to do with pointing out the advantages of Belfast in the face of claims that it is almost preposterous to put a provincial stadium there. But look if you ask any of us what our priority would be I would say all would say a decent county ground over a provincial stadium. You have to remember that in the middle of this mess we have become nomads as far as our county teams are concerned.

For those who find Belfast too far to travel I assume you give Croke Park a miss when your team gets to that stage?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 31/05/2016 08:33:59    1860169

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 31/05/2016 09:11:36    1860178

Offside_Rule I do not think the call here is for Clones over Belfast as travel to Belfast from most parts would be much easier but rather the main call is for another site to be developed using executive money which is geographically more central. But I understand your point that if Clones has been good enough for decades surely Belfast is hardly going to be any more hassle unless of course you prefer Clones town to West Belfast.

Just had a look there and Malinbeg to Belfast is given at 3hrs 12 mins, granted that is a bit of a trek alright but then much of this is to do with the infrastructure in this part of Donegal as Malinbeg to Dungannon (a suggested alternative) is 2hrs 38mins - in essence an additional half an hour to Belfast and that is looking at the extremes and before you look at all other considerations.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 31/05/2016 10:07:04    1860193

Ive said it before......its plain and simple GAA snobbery!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 31/05/2016 16:00:30    1860315

Gary you say that Antrim posters are the only ones on here fighting for Belfast and this is because of the parochial outlook from us. I would say that is more to do with pointing out the advantages of Belfast in the face of claims that it is almost preposterous to put a provincial stadium there. But look if you ask any of us what our priority would be I would say all would say a decent county ground over a provincial stadium. You have to remember that in the middle of this mess we have become nomads as far as our county teams are concerned.

For those who find Belfast too far to travel I assume you give Croke Park a miss when your team gets to that stage?

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts:1858 - 31/05/2016 08:33:59 1

I have always said I don't have an issue with Antrim getting a quality County stadium, nor specifically with Casement Park getting upgraded. That has never been a problem for me, and I have no issue with Belfast as City or place either.

It's purely the Provincial Stadium aspect that I don't particularly like or agree with, as it fails to address the logistical problem of Clones being in one extreme of the Province (South), as the proposed Casement will be in another extreme of the Province(East).

The proposed Casement is being billed as Provincial Stadium of Ulster, yet those behind it have given little or no consideration to the needs of the wider Provincial GAA fans. Celtic Park is on my doorstep here in Derry, but I honestly believe it should be more central for the benefit of the wider County, because I have seen first hand that a City in the extreme West is not an ideal location, especially when compared to Owenbeg at Dungiven which is much more popular and if it was a little bit bigger would be the County Ground already.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 31/05/2016 19:59:09    1860372