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So what Wicklow did in 2008 and 2009 would have happened anyway? Nothing to do with having won the Tommy Murphy Cup showing they could compete and win? Clare winning Munster in 92 and Leitrim in 94 were both on the back of winning the old ''B'' All-Ireland. Other tiers work in hurling the likes of Carlow, Westmeath and Kerry prove this. You can't say these counties got their house in order and that's why it happened. Had it stayed the with it was pre Christy Ring etc it would never have happned. oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 29/07/2020 15:55:14 2285714 Link 1 |
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As i said elsewhere Clare winning Munster in 92 and Leitrim in 94 were both on the back of winning the old ''B'' All-Ireland. But everyone can't have an equal go at it i.e. the senior championship. IF there was a second tier everyone on that also wouldn't have an equal go at it as some teams will always be better etc But it give them a better chance of doing something for the future. As for the future of the championship. The provincial championships being separate to the main championship is hthe best way to go imo The idea of an open draw wouldn't salve anything i think. It would end up with the likes of Kerry, Dublin etc just giving out bigger beats to other teams. Do an ope draw where Dublin play Wateford or Kerry play Leitrim really salve anything? oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 29/07/2020 16:03:17 2285715 Link 0 |
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I think you're giving too much credit to the B All-Ireland and Tommy Murphy cup to be honest. As has been stated many times here, people from Clare, Wicklow and Leitrim etc look back on their championship successes (no matter how infrequent) and rarely if ever mention their token second tier successes for a reason. Why force them down a path that failed twice already? Do you honestly believe that Tommy Murphy Cup 2 will be a success? Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 29/07/2020 16:13:58 2285717 Link 6 |
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I agree completely, well said. I've spoken to a lot of supporters of counties who haven't had much success at provincial or All-Ireland level yet they often speak about their big championship wins and or runs. But I've never once heard a single word about the B All-Ireland or the Tommy Murphy Cup. The fact that those who push a second tier championship often outright ignore this reality concerns me, it seems like it's part of a bigger agenda to cut the Division 3 & 4 teams out of the hunt for Sam altogether in the long run. Again I feel we have 1 excellent tiered competition in the League and 1 excellent and history laden cup competition in the All-Ireland. Replacing the latter with another tiered competition creates an elitist imbalance and I don't think that's a good idea. Ps, speaking of the B All-Ireland, I don't know where I read it, but I remember reading something about the handle falling off the cup when Kevin O'Brien lifted it, the year Wicklow won it, any truth to that do you know? Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 29/07/2020 16:24:26 2285720 Link 6 |
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I believe what changed for Wicklow in 08 and 09 was based upon what happened to a large number of counties outside the traditionally strong counties down through the years. We had a panel of players, an once in a generation group who came together at the right time. Non traditional counties find it hard to keep the conveyor belt going like the big traditional counties. In the previous 3-4 years they were managed by someone within the county who recognised that he couldn't get them over the line due to a lack of self-belief. When Mick O'Dwyer came into the equation in late 2006, he was the missing piece in this particular jigsaw which led to the success we experienced in 08 and 09. There are two interesting points here, note that I say 'led to success', this didn't mean that we won anything like a provincial title i.e. silverware and yet supporters in the county point to it as our most successful period in recent history. No one mentions the Tommy Murphy Cup. Success was based upon the team making strides and the supporters knowing that they had a competitive team that could compete on any given day with counties that felt they were better than us due to their tradition. Secondly, the success that I refer to, led to youngsters i.e. young children and teenagers wearing Wicklow jerseys and going to matches. I met people at matches that I hadn't met in years. Unfortunately, the powers that be in the county didn't build on this new found interest and momentum instead opting to go back to the same ole, same ole. Any time I hear people talk about this period, they never refer to the silverware i.e the tommy murphy cup instead they refer to the matches where we took on more traditional counties and were able to compete and in some cases win. Nothing to do with silverware. Call me old fashion but I don't see how you can sell a second tier competition to players who put in huge effort and scarifice, so much to play in an empty Croke Park, largely forgotten about even if that is not the intention. As I say maybe I am old fashion but I don't see it working in the long run. P.S. I wouldn't describe the current setup in the hurling as being a success worth talking about.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 29/07/2020 16:31:27 2285721 Link 0 |
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I would happily support Limerick in a tier 2 cup if it was a real tier 2 and not a silly shield competition for AI losers Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 29/07/2020 16:51:07 2285726 Link 0 |
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Htaem, what you heard is correct. In 1992, Wicklow beat Antrim to win the All Ireland B title in a rain soaked pitch in Navan. I believe it was played in December (could be corrected on this). When Kevin O'Brien (who won an All Star two years previously) was presented with the cup, he hoisted it above his head and as he did, one of the ears (handles) on the cup separated itself from the cup. It was a big joke at the time in the media and probably still is but I think it sums up the attitude that has existed and I believe still exists in relation to weaker counties. I do believe that the GAA is only interested in establishing elite counties, maybe, it would make life easier or maybe it is about money; I don't know the reasons for it. However, I believe it is the reason that clubs have established the CPA as clubs are being left behind as well in the race to elitism. What I don't understand is why would you want to have a competition where only 8 teams are winning it year after year (about 8 in hurling I reckon). Of course, the traditional counties will win these competitions more than the minnows but for the minnows to aspire to win it once or to dream to win it; surely that is what the GAA was built on. Maybe the plan is for it to be professional like rugby and that is where the small number of teams comes into the equation but below the surface, there are a lot of issues with rugby club who are struggling to survive around the country.
wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 29/07/2020 17:28:42 2285736 Link 1 |
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100% Htaem, we have to look at the championship in football like the FA Cup in English soccer as its all in, how often does 1 of the non traditional English soccer teams win the FA cup? Not very often. But they'll all remember a giant killing and celebrate it like a win What could be done is every div1 team that's "all of them" has to automatically travel to teams from div 2,3,4 nó matter what size their ground is and if fans are left outside. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 29/07/2020 17:37:25 2285739 Link 1 |
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I guess you can leave it up to the county. Some counties maybe the club players don't mind a touch of uncertainty, some counties it'd suit less well. You can have league scheduled and county players will be available for the latter rounds when free. I think what the worst thing about the county system from pre 2017 say was that it was so drawn out. May to September, counties had club championships that needed to be played in the middle of the Intercounty season to get finished on time but the qualifiers meant that depending on provincial performances who knows when the county team would be playing. If you'd a 5 round knockout All Ireland played over 7 weekends. Break weeks after round 2 and the semifinals, I think that'd work a whole lot better. Club players know ok we'll start our championship in one of 6 weekends, it's maybe an appropriate level of uncertainty. To be honest I don't really like a lot of the CPA proposals, I think it's made things worse and not better for everyone. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 29/07/2020 17:41:44 2285741 Link 6 |
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who put in huge effort and scarifice, so much to play in an empty Croke Park, largely forgotten about even if that is not the intention. But that's what they're already doing is it not? What i can't ever understand is what do these counties actually want? Like i siad they say they won't train for a ''B'' championship yet they will train to play in something they won't win but might get a win every few years? '' I wouldn't describe the current setup in the hurling as being a success worth talking about." Carlow have become competitive in recent years with some of the top counties. Laois, Kerry and Westmeath also. Hoe do you think that came about? Had things stayed how they were what would have happened? Kerry would have no championship as they were never going to be able to improve in Munster as the others were so far ahead, they still are at the moment, but now they are not far off the top 10. oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 29/07/2020 19:27:10 2285752 Link 1 |
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Like 've said what is it they actually want? This idea of having a fair chance, what does that even mean? Do they want the others to slow down so they can catch up? As much as people want to say otherwise, very few of any county who have had success in the modern era have do so out of the blue. They had success elsewhere before hand, be it underage etc For everyone who says it wont work etc no one ever offers an alternative, other than it's not fair on them oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 29/07/2020 19:33:11 2285754 Link 1 |
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oneoff, what I am saying is that I don't think the second tier championship is the right option. As to whether it will work is down to how it is run and how the players buy into it. In the past, it was run off out of sight and out of mind, as a result it failed - quite rightly. If the GAA go down the same route with the latest installment then I believe it will suffer the same fate. The GAA is unique in the sense that where you are born determines who you play for regardless of how good you are. This is the strength of the GAA but in another way it is a weakness. I personally think that if a player in a so called weaker county is expected to put in the same effort for six months then that player should be afforded the same opportunity to play in the championship especially if they are playing for a weaker team due to where they are born. Maybe it is not logical but as I have pointed out on a post, success to a player in a weaker county isn't always measured in terms of silverware. If it were then a lot of weaker counties would have ceased to exist a long time ago. The highlight for such a player may be pulling off a shock in a Leinster championship. People talk about weaker counties but if you were to remove Dublin from the Leinster championship, I believe that some Wicklow players would believe that they could pull off a shock against any of the other counties at this moment in time or in a qualifier for that matter. Chances are that it wouldn't happen very often but the odds are not as long as some people in the GAA think. Yes, of course, if WIcklow played Dublin tomorrow, they would be hammered but there are a lot of other counties in other provinces that would suffer the same fate. As I say, maybe I am old fashioned but I am not convinced that the second tier championship is the right option especially if winning it doesn't allow you back into the all Ireland championship. Despite what people say about the tiered championship being a success. One of the counties you reference, Carlow were demoted from the Leinster championship last year for finishing bottom despite putting in good performances especially against Galway while Waterford who finished bottom in Munster remained in the Munster championship. Different rules in the same competition - that doesn't seem to me like the GAA helping the weaker teams to advance, it sounds like protecting the elite counties at all cost. wicklowsupport (Wicklow) - Posts: 1910 - 29/07/2020 20:31:13 2285761 Link 0 |
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Or, say - omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 30/07/2020 00:21:58 2285779 Link 0 |
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Jaysus that must have been quite surreal, watching a handle fly off a cup that's supposed to mean something, just goes to show the Gaa's indifference. There's no doubt that there's a push to create an elite championship, but the less successful counties need to push back against it because it won't benefit them in the long run. Now to the counter to that is the tired old trope of 'ah sure they had no hope of winning it anyway', but that's not the point, in fact that would exclude bascially every county in Ireland bar Dublin at the minute! Point is if you remove half the country from a championship that's been running since 1887 then you will kill much of the interest in those countys. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/07/2020 10:40:00 2285795 Link 6 |
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Exactly, that's what I love about cup football, it affords teams an opportunity to play against the big boys, that league football (while excellent for different reasons) just doesn't. We have a very good tiered competition in the NFL, (which I think the Gaa and the broadcasters could easily elevate in status if the will was there), so I don't understand why there's a push to tamper with our cup competition and basically introduce 2 tiered competitions and no cup. Doesn't make sense to me. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/07/2020 10:45:11 2285797 Link 6 |
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Well look if you want to know what they want then the best thing to do is listen to them. I can't speak for all weaker counties of course but generally speaking I get the feeling that they want to remain in the same football championship as everyone else. They play in at their own level in the league, so this is an opportunity for something different. Now I think you're definition of success is possibly quite narrow (perhaps limited to just provincial or All-Ireland success), however I think others would define success as a big championship win and/or an unusually long championship run. Finally there's been loads of alternative championship structures mentioned here on HS, it's a very extensively debated topic, you can search for the threads if you wish. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/07/2020 10:56:01 2285800 Link 5 |
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Exactly, it's bizzar to say the least, why would you cut half the counties adrift and say we have no time for ye. And this could happen any county bar a few, look at Cork, they were div3 this year and its only 10 years since they won an allireland, look at offaly in the hurling as well. KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 30/07/2020 11:07:46 2285804 Link 0 |
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I would not have a problem with Div3&4 teams not competing for Sam and until you take that away completely a lot of people (supporters and County Board as I think players will) won't take any other competition seriously. In addition one of the issues with the current setup is exactly what some see as an advantage, the hope of a win against a Div 2 or 1 team. If it happens everyone points to is as vindication that everything they done is right while they continue to play in Div 4. It just means that these counties do not focus on coaching and development at a young age and really just hope by chance that someday they will be lucky.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1804 - 30/07/2020 11:24:32 2285807 Link 0 |
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To be fair, I'd imagine a lot of people put the time and effort into coaching and development at a young age in those counties and do so for no financial gain. Now if you don't have a problem with Div 3 & 4 counties being removed from the championship proper then that's ok, that's your opinion. But personally I think removing them will in no way magically increase their interest in some token B competition, in fact I think it will do the exact opposite, I think it will further damage interest in those counties. We need to stop listening to pundits who continue to push this idea that a 2nd tier will work in championship football and recognise that we already have an excellent tiered competition in the NFL (that could be marketed and promoted a lot better) and that we do not need another tiered competition. Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/07/2020 12:54:54 2285825 Link 6 |
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We spent a season in Division 3 ourselves in 2013, now that's fine we deserved to be there. But if that then meant we also had to play in some mickey mouse cup competition in the summer rather than the All-Ireland proper, that would have been a disaster for us!
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/07/2020 12:58:11 2285826 Link 6 |