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Canavan Or Gooch?

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Is this more Brolly divisiveness? Who made the "One trick pony" comment? Martin somebody? Anyway, both great footballers, but Peter Canavan was far more versatile and was the best I have seen perhaps. Even as an analyst Canavan is better.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 06/02/2020 10:40:46    2265614

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Canavan and its not even close

Gooch wasn't better than the great Maurice Fitz and Maurice Fitz was no Mick O'Connell ;)

Clifford in my opinion will be a better football by the end of his career than Gooch.

brian (Meath) - Posts: 1954 - 06/02/2020 11:21:40    2265633

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "Is this more Brolly divisiveness? Who made the "One trick pony" comment? Martin somebody? Anyway, both great footballers, but Peter Canavan was far more versatile and was the best I have seen perhaps. Even as an analyst Canavan is better."
Whatever about as a player, but Canavan is not a good analyst.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 06/02/2020 11:45:49    2265640

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Both were great. Flip a coin.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 2120 - 06/02/2020 13:23:53    2265663

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Replying To hamsterdean:  "Who was the greatest.?? Brolly went with Canavan

https://m.independent.ie/sport/columnists/joe-brolly/joe-brolly-sublime-finisher-but-colm-cooper-didnt-have-answers-when-asked-tough-questions-35607170.html"
Matty Forde

hurlorhurley (Wexford) - Posts: 1660 - 06/02/2020 13:56:04    2265673

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Replying To brian:  "Canavan and its not even close

Gooch wasn't better than the great Maurice Fitz and Maurice Fitz was no Mick O'Connell ;)

Clifford in my opinion will be a better football by the end of his career than Gooch."
Aye but gooch will be in his mid 50s by then ;)

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 06/02/2020 16:37:48    2265718

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Gooch was excellent in every final and almost every big game I saw him play bar 2015 when he really shouldn't have been in the field.

He out scored Canavan in that 2005 final btw, and was the standout player before sustaining a nasty eye injury early in the game. He was also very good in the 2008 final and in 2011, and was a standout player in the 2013 semi in what was one of the best games I've ever attended. If that is little or no impact in your view then fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinions.

This Canavan v Gooch debate comes up fairly regularly and there seems to be a convenient revisionist agenda by some looking back at Goochs career, where they only want to discuss games Kerry lost, and give no credit whatsoever for the ones they won. Peter Canavan was involved in a lot of losses and disappointments during his career too, strangely nobody ever wants to pore over those.

FWIW I think they are both living legends of the game and two of the best talents we have ever seen. I'd struggle to say one was better than the other with any real conviction. That 95 performance by Canavan was unreal, possibly equalled two years later by Maurice Fitzgerald though. I think it's probably worth adding that both of those performances were in the days of 15 v 15 man v man football and before the days of crowded defences, double marking and sweepers. It was a lot easier to operate as a forward in those days. You rarely see a player at the very top level take control of a game like that now because they'd never get the space to do it."
To be honest it's an interesting debate and nobody can deny they were great players. In fact if the debate was widened I'd have had at least three or four forwards ahead of Gooch that played in the last 30 years but would select Canavan everytime. Stephen O'Neill, Sean Cavanagh, Maurice Fitz, Declan O'Sullivan, Steven McDonnell, Trevor Giles, Graham Gergerty were better forwards than Gooch who benefited from playing for a great media loved Kerry team.

It's hard to talk about individual players but those players really stood up when their teams were under pressure and did something in an All Ireland final to change the way that game was going. Gooch might have outscored Canavan in 2005 but Tyrone were second best until that goal, changing the whole direction of that game - all the players I mentioned did the same to win All Ireland's. Gooch was the most skillful player ever but to me was a luxury player who stood out when Kerry were comfortable in games but when Kerry struggled he was nowhere to be seen.

Canavan got beat around the field for a decade due to his statue but individually dragged Tyrone through many battles. If I had to select forwards at their peak the players I mentioned would be ahead of Gooch due to their record in competing in genuine knife edge battles - just an opinion.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 06/02/2020 16:54:31    2265723

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "Is this more Brolly divisiveness? Who made the "One trick pony" comment? Martin somebody? Anyway, both great footballers, but Peter Canavan was far more versatile and was the best I have seen perhaps. Even as an analyst Canavan is better."
I believe the one-trick pony comment was made about James O'Donoghue, not Gooch.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 06/02/2020 17:24:48    2265729

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Two great players how would you pick one over the other.

Themall1916 (Kerry) - Posts: 98 - 06/02/2020 17:56:01    2265738

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yep I always find it strange when Gooch is being assessed that people seem not bothered to check or conveniently forget the massive scoring contribution he made in All Ireland finals let alone Munster finals, semi-finals etc etc

It seems just because some of the finals were comprehensive victories, they are not rated. And I'm always amused that this is only ever the case when its a Kerry team!! Eh Dublin v Tyrone in 2018 anyone???

Just to stem the tide of this revisionism - Mayo got to those finals on merit.

Cork, in case people forget, were consistently the 2/3rd best team in Ireland from 2002-2010.

Gooch, despite the collective amnesia, performed excellently in games against Tyrone, in fact he was on fire in 2005 until he came upon a Tyrone ophthalmologist ;D

Cavanan was brilliant, but it's Gooch for me, biased as I am.

And why is Declan O'Sullivan always forgotten in these conversations?

Dig out the 2014 Munster final, the last game in the old PUC. For me it was one of the greatest attacking performances by any player wearing his county jersey."
Declan O'Sullivan was a very different type of player, which is why he's rarely directly compared. He had an ability to carry the ball on very long runs, which neither Canavan nor Gooch did regularly. He covered a lot more ground and did more of the leg work, but was also an excellent scorer when on the end of moves.
O'Sullivan was a joy to watch and he took some amount of punishment over the years due to his style. He was targeted regularly when playing for his club too as he pretty much carried Piarsaigh na Droimide for much of his career.
Gooch, Canavan, Joyce, Forde, Browne although different would be categorised similarly, but I'd have O'Sullivan in a different bracket of forward.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 06/02/2020 18:04:01    2265741

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "I believe the one-trick pony comment was made about James O'Donoghue, not Gooch."
No.. Martin Mc Hugh said gooch was a one trick pony when comparing o'donoghue and gooch..he actually said o'donoghue was the better player!!!

jacktheDub (Dublin) - Posts: 944 - 06/02/2020 18:34:00    2265747

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Replying To jacktheDub:  "No.. Martin Mc Hugh said gooch was a one trick pony when comparing o'donoghue and gooch..he actually said o'donoghue was the better player!!!"
I stand corrected. Although I see the actual quote was a "two-trick pony".
Twice the player. :)

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2039 - 06/02/2020 18:56:36    2265754

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Canavan is the Michael Jordan of Gaelic

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 06/02/2020 21:14:30    2265785

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Replying To sam1884:  "To be honest it's an interesting debate and nobody can deny they were great players. In fact if the debate was widened I'd have had at least three or four forwards ahead of Gooch that played in the last 30 years but would select Canavan everytime. Stephen O'Neill, Sean Cavanagh, Maurice Fitz, Declan O'Sullivan, Steven McDonnell, Trevor Giles, Graham Gergerty were better forwards than Gooch who benefited from playing for a great media loved Kerry team.

It's hard to talk about individual players but those players really stood up when their teams were under pressure and did something in an All Ireland final to change the way that game was going. Gooch might have outscored Canavan in 2005 but Tyrone were second best until that goal, changing the whole direction of that game - all the players I mentioned did the same to win All Ireland's. Gooch was the most skillful player ever but to me was a luxury player who stood out when Kerry were comfortable in games but when Kerry struggled he was nowhere to be seen.

Canavan got beat around the field for a decade due to his statue but individually dragged Tyrone through many battles. If I had to select forwards at their peak the players I mentioned would be ahead of Gooch due to their record in competing in genuine knife edge battles - just an opinion."
Interesting how Canavan had to drag Tyrone through all these games on his own yet you name two teammates from the same forward line that were better than Cooper? Does not compute Sam.

As for getting beat around the field do you think Cooper was playing tag football? He was kicked to bits his entire career, never mind his on-field eye surgery in the 2005 final, yet nobody was more prolific from play during his time in football, a lot of the guys you listed depended heavily on frees, including Canavan.

Anyway, happy enough to disagree on it. My opinion is no more valid than your but I do think you are cherry picking some of the criteria and massively understating his contribution in the finals that he played in.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 06/02/2020 21:14:44    2265786

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People are always bring up how Copper didn't do it in big games etc What games are they talking about?

Also with Canavan there always seems to be this idea around him that he never played a bad game in his life

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 06/02/2020 22:35:51    2265812

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Yep I always find it strange when Gooch is being assessed that people seem not bothered to check or conveniently forget the massive scoring contribution he made in All Ireland finals let alone Munster finals, semi-finals etc etc

It seems just because some of the finals were comprehensive victories, they are not rated. And I'm always amused that this is only ever the case when its a Kerry team!! Eh Dublin v Tyrone in 2018 anyone???

Just to stem the tide of this revisionism - Mayo got to those finals on merit.

Cork, in case people forget, were consistently the 2/3rd best team in Ireland from 2002-2010.

Gooch, despite the collective amnesia, performed excellently in games against Tyrone, in fact he was on fire in 2005 until he came upon a Tyrone ophthalmologist ;D

Cavanan was brilliant, but it's Gooch for me, biased as I am.

And why is Declan O'Sullivan always forgotten in these conversations?

Dig out the 2014 Munster final, the last game in the old PUC. For me it was one of the greatest attacking performances by any player wearing his county jersey."
Fair points...Those Kerry teams don't get the credit for beating Mayo in finals because ye hammered us out the gate (we beat Tyrone in the quarter in 04) and possibly because we are seen as a joke or something to mock in finals.

In recent years I've seen comments about he great Dublin team by people saying "ah they could only beta Mayo by a point after a replay twice....."

Fact is people will always try to belittle the achievements of a team instead of celebrate it.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11230 - 06/02/2020 23:54:46    2265837

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Ha ha, It didn't take long for this thread to go all North Korea:

"Comrades, Kerry never won a straw All Ireland,

Comrades, Kerry have the greatest players, until they meet bully boy tactics, just dont show up or it rains.

Comrades the infidel shall not be tolerated, the county will plant a newspapers reports that the infidel lives in Dublin and shall disappear.

Comrades, we shall not tolerate any criticism of Kerry not being the greatest, the county will smear any naysayers and the number 5 from this point shal be banned.

Comrades, we look forward to the upcoming Olympics were Kerry will win All the golds.

Wishing you all the best with your fingers in your ears,

Kingdom Jong Un."

*Never change Kerry, never change. ;)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/02/2020 11:04:03    2265905

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I'm shocked at all the votes for Canavan. When I saw this thread I thought it would be overwhelmingly in favour of Cooper. There's always a subconscious bias against Kerry in these types of discussions because they've had so much success and them having so many great players in so many different eras. Because Gooch was not that much better than Sheehy or Fitzgerald should not take away from the fact that he is the most gifted forward any of us have ever seen. Because Canavan and his Tyrone team were so much better than any other Tyrone player and team should not falsely inflate their status. They were great but certainly not the best we have seen.
Swap their counties and careers and there wouldn't even be a discussion. If there was it would be 100% for Cooper.

Mailman98 (Galway) - Posts: 319 - 07/02/2020 15:24:47    2265961

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Its mad Cooper never won footballer of the year, Canavan won it 1995 if my memory is right, i could be corrected on that though.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 07/02/2020 15:45:41    2265971

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Replying To Mailman98:  "I'm shocked at all the votes for Canavan. When I saw this thread I thought it would be overwhelmingly in favour of Cooper. There's always a subconscious bias against Kerry in these types of discussions because they've had so much success and them having so many great players in so many different eras. Because Gooch was not that much better than Sheehy or Fitzgerald should not take away from the fact that he is the most gifted forward any of us have ever seen. Because Canavan and his Tyrone team were so much better than any other Tyrone player and team should not falsely inflate their status. They were great but certainly not the best we have seen.
Swap their counties and careers and there wouldn't even be a discussion. If there was it would be 100% for Cooper."
I wouldn't say the bias against Kerry is subconscious. It's a full time occupation for many on here.

Better to be hated than ignored I think is the saying

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 07/02/2020 17:10:14    2265991

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