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Nations League / Euro Qualifiers A Model For AIC ?

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Replying To KillingFields: "Why not put then in one thread than spammingnthe entire forum?" Why don't you debate the topic or stay away from his/her threads? achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 561 - 23/11/2019 18:34:42 2251011 Link
Replying To achara: "Why don't you debate the topic or stay away from his/her threads?" Thanks. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 23/11/2019 20:24:17 2251026 Link
Replying To achara: "Why don't you debate the topic or stay away from his/her threads?" I did and do but making point about omahant posting so many threads on the same topic- all Ireland football championship formats- and these could be better suited to just one thread rather than loads!! KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 23/11/2019 21:37:03 2251038 Link
How about a revision to that 12-match schedule - - Middle 4 seeds (7 to 10) in one Conf v Top 6/Bottom 6 seeds (1-6 & 11-16) in Other Conf (gives these 4 an identical 12-match schedule, most likely vying for 2 KO QF berths, assuming 6 top seeds also advance). - So avoidance of Middle 4 v Middle 4; Top 4 v Bottom 4; and Seeds 5,6,11,12 avoid the same (so these 4 have a similar schedule strength to the Middle 4, although not all the same opponents. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 23/11/2019 23:26:08 2251057 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "I did and do but making point about omahant posting so many threads on the same topic- all Ireland football championship formats- and these could be better suited to just one thread rather than loads!!" But what if an idea is so different to the last that it shouldn't be just on the same thread? And does that mean everyone else should do the same? Or maybe should everyone's ideas about championship formats go into one big thread? Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1029 - 24/11/2019 08:37:54 2251071 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "I did and do but making point about omahant posting so many threads on the same topic- all Ireland football championship formats- and these could be better suited to just one thread rather than loads!!" Some of the ideas would be lost in the 1 thread, it's no harm starting new threads imo achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 561 - 24/11/2019 09:23:22 2251072 Link
Replying To achara: "Some of the ideas would be lost in the 1 thread, it's no harm starting new threads imo" Maybe but do we need separate threads for everyone of his ideas when so many are so similar. At least one thread you can compare them directly within the thread and looks far better as well KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 24/11/2019 16:16:28 2251129 Link
There's actually quite a variety - like the following two - The one modifying the existing two-stream structure for example - - Mostly keep what we have - Extend front door and curtail back door both by one rd - Prov SF losers draw an existing Qual 1st Rd 'pairing' for 8 groups of 3 - Prov Final losers join top 2 from 8 groups for KO Rd 2 of 20 - Prov Champs losers join 10 Rd 2 winners in KO Rd 3 of 12 - 6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Champs in KO QFs (no Super 8). Or, this one - Super 18 - - Top 18 (NFL divs 1&2, prior div 2 bottom 2 & prior Tier 2 Finalists - add div 3 teams, if needed for 18). - 3 seeding pots of 6, draw one from each - 6 groups of 3 ( keep all inter-prov, playing once) - After 2 games per team, top 2 in 6 groups join the separate retained Prov Champs in AI KO Rd of 16 (8 2nds and 2 worst 1sts drawn away). - Lowest 14 (Tier 2) to 4 groups of 3 & 1 '2 leg' group of 2 - 5 group winners & 3 best 2nds from 4x3 to QFs. - 2 Finalists to Super 18 next year - Tier 2 teams can win Tier 1 in curret year via Provs. I could go on and on...while your lacking manifests in smoke and mirrors. Some lesser beings (just like the Emperor) have no clothes. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 24/11/2019 18:12:35 2251146 Link
Replying To omahant: "There's actually quite a variety - like the following two - The one modifying the existing two-stream structure for example - - Mostly keep what we have - Extend front door and curtail back door both by one rd - Prov SF losers draw an existing Qual 1st Rd 'pairing' for 8 groups of 3 - Prov Final losers join top 2 from 8 groups for KO Rd 2 of 20 - Prov Champs losers join 10 Rd 2 winners in KO Rd 3 of 12 - 6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Champs in KO QFs (no Super 8). Or, this one - Super 18 - - Top 18 (NFL divs 1&2, prior div 2 bottom 2 & prior Tier 2 Finalists - add div 3 teams, if needed for 18). - 3 seeding pots of 6, draw one from each - 6 groups of 3 ( keep all inter-prov, playing once) - After 2 games per team, top 2 in 6 groups join the separate retained Prov Champs in AI KO Rd of 16 (8 2nds and 2 worst 1sts drawn away). - Lowest 14 (Tier 2) to 4 groups of 3 & 1 '2 leg' group of 2 - 5 group winners & 3 best 2nds from 4x3 to QFs. - 2 Finalists to Super 18 next year - Tier 2 teams can win Tier 1 in curret year via Provs. I could go on and on...while your lacking manifests in smoke and mirrors. Some lesser beings (just like the Emperor) have no clothes." Why focus on such convoluted proposals when its basic tweaks that are needed. Straight knockout and keeping qualifiers and provincial cups in same role. Provincial competitions should be stand alone but winners guaranteed spot in latter stages of all Ireland if not qualified from group stage. Play league through year rather than shoehorned into first quarter fo the year. No replays at any stage and have proper club only periods. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 24/11/2019 18:25:27 2251149 Link
To Whammo86 - Is the revised schedule below (copied from recent input above) any more to your liking ? Now, teams 5 to 12 have an 'equal strength' schedule (avoid 4 teams with seeding total of 34), limits any tanking motive, has 8 of 12 common opponents and at least as good as Shara. Handicap applies to Top 4 (34+24, avoids total 58), and helps Bottom 4 (34-24, avoids strong total 10). How about a revision to that 12-match schedule - - Middle 4 seeds (7 to 10) in one Conf v Top 6/Bottom 6 seeds (1-6 & 11-16) in Other Conf (gives these 4 an identical 12-match schedule, most likely vying for 2 KO QF berths, assuming 6 top seeds also advance). - So avoidance of Middle 4 v Middle 4; Top 4 v Bottom 4; and Seeds 5,6,11,12 avoid the same (so these 4 have a similar schedule strength to the Middle 4, although not all the same opponents. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 24/11/2019 18:57:51 2251154 Link
Replying To omahant: "To Whammo86 - Is the revised schedule below (copied from recent input above) any more to your liking ? Now, teams 5 to 12 have an 'equal strength' schedule (avoid 4 teams with seeding total of 34), limits any tanking motive, has 8 of 12 common opponents and at least as good as Shara. Handicap applies to Top 4 (34+24, avoids total 58), and helps Bottom 4 (34-24, avoids strong total 10). How about a revision to that 12-match schedule - - Middle 4 seeds (7 to 10) in one Conf v Top 6/Bottom 6 seeds (1-6 & 11-16) in Other Conf (gives these 4 an identical 12-match schedule, most likely vying for 2 KO QF berths, assuming 6 top seeds also advance). - So avoidance of Middle 4 v Middle 4; Top 4 v Bottom 4; and Seeds 5,6,11,12 avoid the same (so these 4 have a similar schedule strength to the Middle 4, although not all the same opponents." It's not any better. There's a good few reasons why it wouldn't work. The handicap should go. You have the final round of games. The team ranked 8th in A v the team ranked 13th in B. The team from B could be disadvantaged for next year by winning the match. The integrity of the competition can be undermined by them throwing the game. That's a narrow example but it illustrates a huge flaw in the system. Competitive integrity is way more important than competitive balance in my eyes. I know that in any league that you can have teams where the result can mean more to one team than the other. It's not ideal but is the price paid to facilitate more games. To have a team actively incentivised to lose is a whole other ball game. I also hate that you like tournaments where teams are on the same ladder who have never played one another. I just don't like this at all. You do it to avoid repeat pairings further along. I think regular group play where teams are ranked against the teams they've actually played is better. The first knockout rounds are always cross group games and that's enough. My preferred structures for the All Ireland's in both codes is influenced by an idea of yours. Where seeded unique groups are created in the hurling competition out of the Provincial championships. Similar seeded groups can be created in football. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 25/11/2019 10:50:10 2251268 Link
Thanks Whammo86 for taking the time on your detailed critique - good to have an intelligent springboard. That 13th team would surely try if I made each Conf a 'KO 11' (3 QF Playoffs before Conf QFs, but then, I don't like 5 KO Rds). Ideally, I'm trying to find a blended schedule, where all teams get exposure to mixed quality opposition (excl div 1v4). This I feel is the best way for developing counties to 'develop' - difficult to solve while retaining one tier. Maybe a blend of 4 ranked NFL divisions (like Nations League), and separately, 8 mixed quality groups (Euro/WC Finals, limits div 1v4) is best. Say, top half of the 12 sections advance - teams advancing twice to the Rd of 16 (once to Prelim Rd, likely with div 4 teams) - teams seeded and re-seeded each rd prior to AI SFs, based on NFL div/placing. Play NFL and groups concurrently so teams don't advance until late. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 25/11/2019 12:32:49 2251295 Link
Hey, Wham - how timely, NBA innovations attached - even as a successful brand, the tanking issue you emphasise has led to this latest innovation - https://www.boston.com/sports/nba/2019/11/24/nba-schedule-playoff-format-changes Should I make it 10-11 teams per Conf as well ? It's so hard to find the ideal solution - I don't want a quarter of each NFL division in 4 groups of 8 - I prefer to skew the schedule toward attractive / marketable 'div 1v1' pairings. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 26/11/2019 00:45:13 2251461 Link
Replying To omahant: "Hey, Wham - how timely, NBA innovations attached - even as a successful brand, the tanking issue you emphasise has led to this latest innovation - https://www.boston.com/sports/nba/2019/11/24/nba-schedule-playoff-format-changes Should I make it 10-11 teams per Conf as well ? It's so hard to find the ideal solution - I don't want a quarter of each NFL division in 4 groups of 8 - I prefer to skew the schedule toward attractive / marketable 'div 1v1' pairings." There's a lot of variables. It's tricky, you want to provide teams with good games but not have them all be low impact games. NBA has a lot of low impact games with the number of regular season games and high number of regular season qualifiers. For GAA there's been a tradition of high impact knockout championship competitions. It's less suitable now though given the training demands on players they deserve a better season. You also have the protected nature of the Provincials. The best I can come up with is Feb and March Club provincials and All Ireland. Take them out of the depths of winter. Development/Pre Season inter county competitions played with players not involved with their clubs. April/May Inter county Provincial Championships. Club competitions can start also, if a team is knocked out early or has a gap between rounds, county boards have the option to allow county players to play with their clubs. June/July Tight schedule of inter county All Ireland group action. 2 groups of 8 in football in each tier. Club competitions will be without county players August Intercounty knockout rounds. Club football can recommence with county players for counties eliminated from All Ireland. September and October finish up club activity. Break Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 26/11/2019 13:55:12 2251551 Link
"Club competitions can start also, if a team is knocked out early or has a gap between rounds" This is the crux of the current problem - I want inter-county and inter-club to run in parallel. A given player should play inter-county on 'reserved' weekends within the common season - or ultimately, go shoot me - in 2019, after 32 years away - I have been been commercial-IZED ! - the elite player should play for a pay chECK - the GPA may not be the vehicle but the 'trojan horse' to the inevitable - 'Super League 8' pro clubs/franchises a la rugby league anyone ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 27/11/2019 02:10:23 2251712 Link
I just don't understand why county isn't run like club. 3 grades of 10, 10 and 12 with two groups of 5 or 6. More competitive matches for lower grades, more high profile clashes at senior for the TV gurus. Top two into a semi, max of 7 games, relegation for the bottom teams in each group in respective grade. win your grade you move up. Run provincial competitions separately and league at the start of the year. scrap the likes of the FBD. Simple? Farnyarmy (Monaghan) - Posts: 5 - 27/11/2019 11:00:11 2251749 Link
Replying To Farnyarmy: "I just don't understand why county isn't run like club. 3 grades of 10, 10 and 12 with two groups of 5 or 6. More competitive matches for lower grades, more high profile clashes at senior for the TV gurus. Top two into a semi, max of 7 games, relegation for the bottom teams in each group in respective grade. win your grade you move up. Run provincial competitions separately and league at the start of the year. scrap the likes of the FBD. Simple?" Club system isnt set up that way in all counties tbh. But tiered intercounty is needed. I would run provincial competitions separately but not before this league based all Ireland even starts. Have provincial straight knock out no replays. Extra time and penalties to decide winners every few weeks between league based all Ireland. Could also have 32 county straight knock out all Ireland cup as well. Cutting out replays and having some weekends where you know for certain counties wont be playing allows more club games be played in summer with county players available KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 27/11/2019 11:43:46 2251758 Link
Replying To Farnyarmy: "I just don't understand why county isn't run like club. 3 grades of 10, 10 and 12 with two groups of 5 or 6. More competitive matches for lower grades, more high profile clashes at senior for the TV gurus. Top two into a semi, max of 7 games, relegation for the bottom teams in each group in respective grade. win your grade you move up. Run provincial competitions separately and league at the start of the year. scrap the likes of the FBD. Simple?" Club system isnt set up that way in all counties tbh. But tiered intercounty is needed. I would run provincial competitions separately but not before this league based all Ireland even starts. Have provincial straight knock out no replays. Extra time and penalties to decide winners every few weeks between league based all Ireland. Could also have 32 county straight knock out all Ireland cup as well. Cutting out replays and having some weekends where you know for certain counties wont be playing allows more club games be played in summer with county players available KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 27/11/2019 11:43:47 2251759 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "Club system isnt set up that way in all counties tbh. But tiered intercounty is needed. I would run provincial competitions separately but not before this league based all Ireland even starts. Have provincial straight knock out no replays. Extra time and penalties to decide winners every few weeks between league based all Ireland. Could also have 32 county straight knock out all Ireland cup as well. Cutting out replays and having some weekends where you know for certain counties wont be playing allows more club games be played in summer with county players available" I'd run them before because otherwise they will just become less regarded. You saw it in the Ulster hurling championship. Teams like Down and Derry prioritised the Ring competition ahead of the Provincials. Provincials given their own window, teams being able to use it as the ideal preparation opportunity ahead of the main competition. I think it could breath new life into the Provincials to be a season opener like that. They'd still be linked to the All Ireland weakly. Provincial champions only guaranteed a spot in tier 1 plus 10 next best from the previous season's tier 1 plus finalists from the previous season's tier 2. It keeps the magic of the Provincial championships but have a fairer AI competition. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 27/11/2019 17:35:58 2251837 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I'd run them before because otherwise they will just become less regarded. You saw it in the Ulster hurling championship. Teams like Down and Derry prioritised the Ring competition ahead of the Provincials. Provincials given their own window, teams being able to use it as the ideal preparation opportunity ahead of the main competition. I think it could breath new life into the Provincials to be a season opener like that. They'd still be linked to the All Ireland weakly. Provincial champions only guaranteed a spot in tier 1 plus 10 next best from the previous season's tier 1 plus finalists from the previous season's tier 2. It keeps the magic of the Provincial championships but have a fairer AI competition." You are assuming they would be less regarded. Teams are training so much and just like any sport there would be some rotation in stronger sides squads they still wouldnt be less thought of than before. I dont see moving them to start of season bringing new life as they're just seen as pre season warm up. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 27/11/2019 17:53:22 2251843 Link