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Irish Rugby Must Look To GAA's Top Talent For A Brighter Future

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Replying To galwayford:  "Football is just as important. There are some good clubs around. Galway Utd, Mervue, Limerick, Cork city, etc."
Do you mean soccer? and if you do why not say so. I do not think those boys would handle the tough stuff

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2064 - 02/11/2019 19:29:47    2247272

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Very good post. While Rugby has to yet make inroads at adult playing level, one area it is making huge inroads is at participation of Primary school children. I have seen this first hand & many teachers & principals in Primary schools (many of whom are active with Cumann na mBunscoil) will tell you that the coaching provided by the IRFU in schools is way beyond the coaching provided by the GAA in terms of its programme, implementation & roll out. The kids love it. Your point is lost by the haters who can't see that many posting on this are from GAA backgrounds but totally frustrated by the direction of the current leadership & the apathy it shows to its membership outside of the elite Inter County scene. The dismissal a few years ago by the Association of an ERSI report on drop out rates across all sports, because it highlighted the exodus of players from 16 to adult level in GAA as being at the highest in any sport, shows that the ostrich with the head buried in the sand is how much interest they have. For the armchair scribes on here who just go to county matches or watch on TV, they have never being involved for decades like some, who see how hard it is now to run a club, raise the funds & try to retain players without any help from Croke Park who just gobble up the registration & affiliation fees & keep filling the fixtures calendar with more & more Inter County games with less time for clubs. The real indicator of how little they care is the way they dismiss completely the CPA despite its membership number being 10 times that of the GPA. All the talk is of Tier 2 at the moment, but there already is a Tier 2 in the Association, Tier 1 is Inter County & Croke Park, Tier 2 is the rest of the Association that makes up 98% of it. Just as with Irish politics I have witnessed many parents & players drop out over the decades & have a complete apathy towards the Association, all because of the way it is run. People don't opt for Rugby, they just drift to it & other activities looking for something with better structure. It's all very simple but there is no interest at leadership level to change anything, in fact the juggernaut that is Inter County is now out of control & the next step is coming very very soon, pay for play. A step that will lead to further exodus of volunteers on the ground."
this is not a bad post. There are some good points made. I know though the German supermarket Aldi is pushing national school rugby. I would question though how a physical game like Rugby is suitable for young kids. It will be a struggle for the GAA to counter the glamour of professional rugby. I would suggest having more Gaelic speaking teams is one way to do this. And I will be posting details of the GAA grant system for this shortly. Slán

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1703 - 02/11/2019 21:17:19    2247303

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/irish-rugby-must-look-to-gaa-s-top-talent-for-a-brighter-future-1.4056933

In his post mortem on the failure of the Irish team in the Rugby World Cup, Gavin Cummiskey writes....

"...What is more apparent than ever before is if the IRFU ever hope to live with the All Blacks of this sport then they must rip a leaf out of the AFL book of recruitment and enhance the head-hunting of the GAA's underage talent.
Certainly more than the softly, softly, approach currently employed...."

"......The " freaks" (best talent) can be found inside this island's most fiercely protected strongholds, Kilkenny hurling and Kerry football, who periodically gift rugby delicious crumbs like Willie Duggan or Mick Galwey. Cork possesses thousands of gifted athletes who never get anywhere near the oval ball. The O'Alpin brothers from Fiji were just as athletic as Sevu Reece. Sean Og still works in the bank. Setanta settled in Sydney...."

"....If you want to find a line of Jack Goodhues or Barrett brothers then scout the Laois juvenile football scene. Roscommon has plenty more Jack Cartys.
Otherwise forget about living with any generation of All Blacks...."

"..... So, more talent is needed from untapped genetic pools. Hurlers. It won't be solved before 2023 but, clearly, if the GAA can cope with AFL cherry picking, they shouldn't be bothered by the IRFU ramping up their recruitment of teenagers."

Comments?"
Those quotes disgust me.

Gowran_Yank (Kilkenny) - Posts: 79 - 02/11/2019 21:44:41    2247307

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Replying To moc.dna:  "Very good post. While Rugby has to yet make inroads at adult playing level, one area it is making huge inroads is at participation of Primary school children. I have seen this first hand & many teachers & principals in Primary schools (many of whom are active with Cumann na mBunscoil) will tell you that the coaching provided by the IRFU in schools is way beyond the coaching provided by the GAA in terms of its programme, implementation & roll out. The kids love it. Your point is lost by the haters who can't see that many posting on this are from GAA backgrounds but totally frustrated by the direction of the current leadership & the apathy it shows to its membership outside of the elite Inter County scene. The dismissal a few years ago by the Association of an ERSI report on drop out rates across all sports, because it highlighted the exodus of players from 16 to adult level in GAA as being at the highest in any sport, shows that the ostrich with the head buried in the sand is how much interest they have. For the armchair scribes on here who just go to county matches or watch on TV, they have never being involved for decades like some, who see how hard it is now to run a club, raise the funds & try to retain players without any help from Croke Park who just gobble up the registration & affiliation fees & keep filling the fixtures calendar with more & more Inter County games with less time for clubs. The real indicator of how little they care is the way they dismiss completely the CPA despite its membership number being 10 times that of the GPA. All the talk is of Tier 2 at the moment, but there already is a Tier 2 in the Association, Tier 1 is Inter County & Croke Park, Tier 2 is the rest of the Association that makes up 98% of it. Just as with Irish politics I have witnessed many parents & players drop out over the decades & have a complete apathy towards the Association, all because of the way it is run. People don't opt for Rugby, they just drift to it & other activities looking for something with better structure. It's all very simple but there is no interest at leadership level to change anything, in fact the juggernaut that is Inter County is now out of control & the next step is coming very very soon, pay for play. A step that will lead to further exodus of volunteers on the ground."
I've never seen the ERSI report so was just wondering was the higher dropout from GAA a higher ratio of playing numbers Vs dropouts or just higher number of dropouts which would be normal given GAA has more active players especially in rural areas where chance of migration away from your home team is more likely.

Also the slow increase of games for the paid rugby teams and the move away from local clubs is what made rugby so successful and a draw for future GAA players so how then will it be the death of the GAA if it happens to the intercounty teams.

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 319 - 03/11/2019 00:42:18    2247324

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "Id say hundreds of thousands of Unionist people on this small island would say the GAA is anything but all inclusive. Professional sport doesnt give a hoot about a persons backround or 'class' to use your term. The parachuting of South Africans into the Irish team is evidence of this. Professional sports are the ultimate leveller, it only matters what you do on the pitch. Even straight out of prison for terrible deeds, if you can do it on the pitch professional teams will sign you up."
The GAA have a road to travel in terms of attracting people from a "unionist" preference to be part of our games granted. I know some people have looked at issues which can promote that aim. What the GAA won't do and rightly so is dilute it's Irishness to accommodate people who at the minute have no intention of looking towards the GAA due to it's "Irishness" but there are groups, programmes etc already taking place in Ulster communities to try and open the GAA up to everyone in Irish society including unionists but that takes time.

You talk about professional sports and it not caring where people come from. That is not true; professional sporting organisations cannot leave things to chance. They need to protect their business so target areas with huge investment and opportunites to ensure they have elite players coming through. Irish rugby target middle to upper class colleges and certain affluent areas around the country. The scouting system is concentrated solely on these small areas and class systems - look at the evidence where senior Irish players come from.

Irish rugby will not waste their resources looking at non rugby areas - they may pay lip service to inclusiveness but look at the amount of players developed in Leinster who are being sent around the country. Leinster have the majority of affluent colleges and is home to D4. The GAA is a truly national organisation with no bias towards class or college, they have nothing to worry about when competing with Rugby.

Rugby want the game to have nationwide interest and promote it as the national sport - that is a business decision due to ticket sales, media deals, sponsorship etc but when you go below the surface rugby is very much a closed shop to 70% of this country and that's why it'll never be the people's sport.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 509 - 03/11/2019 11:45:56    2247361

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Replying To sam1884:  "The GAA have a road to travel in terms of attracting people from a "unionist" preference to be part of our games granted. I know some people have looked at issues which can promote that aim. What the GAA won't do and rightly so is dilute it's Irishness to accommodate people who at the minute have no intention of looking towards the GAA due to it's "Irishness" but there are groups, programmes etc already taking place in Ulster communities to try and open the GAA up to everyone in Irish society including unionists but that takes time.

You talk about professional sports and it not caring where people come from. That is not true; professional sporting organisations cannot leave things to chance. They need to protect their business so target areas with huge investment and opportunites to ensure they have elite players coming through. Irish rugby target middle to upper class colleges and certain affluent areas around the country. The scouting system is concentrated solely on these small areas and class systems - look at the evidence where senior Irish players come from.

Irish rugby will not waste their resources looking at non rugby areas - they may pay lip service to inclusiveness but look at the amount of players developed in Leinster who are being sent around the country. Leinster have the majority of affluent colleges and is home to D4. The GAA is a truly national organisation with no bias towards class or college, they have nothing to worry about when competing with Rugby.

Rugby want the game to have nationwide interest and promote it as the national sport - that is a business decision due to ticket sales, media deals, sponsorship etc but when you go below the surface rugby is very much a closed shop to 70% of this country and that's why it'll never be the people's sport."
Except rugby isnt a closed shop to anyone. Clubs all across country open to all. Pro rugby has more from some schools because they play and train more than kids who dont go to these schools
Irish rugby diesnt target these schools. There was tradition of these schools playing from very start of sport is all.
Scouting isnt focused on those. They look at clubs and youths rugby and smaller schools as much

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 335 - 03/11/2019 12:11:31    2247364

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Except rugby isnt a closed shop to anyone. Clubs all across country open to all. Pro rugby has more from some schools because they play and train more than kids who dont go to these schools
Irish rugby diesnt target these schools. There was tradition of these schools playing from very start of sport is all.
Scouting isnt focused on those. They look at clubs and youths rugby and smaller schools as much"
I live in West Dublin. We are proud of the fact that we are home to Dublin GAA and also Shamrock Rovers. I am also proud we don't have any real rugby clubs. This is our culture in West Dublin. Same as in Loyalist East Belfast they wear poppies and march every 12th July. Limerick has always had a working class who play rugby. Dublin thankfully has not yet. Hence the 5 in a row. We here in West Dublin do need a decent Dublin hurling team though. Slán

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1703 - 03/11/2019 12:49:31    2247374

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Except rugby isnt a closed shop to anyone. Clubs all across country open to all. Pro rugby has more from some schools because they play and train more than kids who dont go to these schools
Irish rugby diesnt target these schools. There was tradition of these schools playing from very start of sport is all.
Scouting isnt focused on those. They look at clubs and youths rugby and smaller schools as much"
The point I'm making is in response to the title of this thread and some people raising concern about rugby competing with the GAA for elite players. Anybody can play a sport from any age and enjoy doing so. When we talk about genuine opportunties in that sport, in this case rugby it is a closed shop.

You say percentages are due to certain schools playing, training more and playing the game from the start of time. I'd say these schools have a very clear and open pathway to move through different structures of the game; a pathway which goes straight to the top of the game in Ireland.

It's the reason over 80% of senior Irish internationals or Provincial players come from this pathway. A flash in the pan talent might make it from a different upbringing but in the main if you don't come from a certain class or school you'll never be noticed and you certainly won't get the world class coaching from a young age to improve your game and allow you to rise through the ranks.

There is clubs and recreational rugby of course but the elite pathway is very much linked to college and class; it's evidence based look at the statisitics. For this reason the GAA won't ever come under pressure from rugby when it comes to having a sport for all mentality; it's what's great about the GAA, class doesn't come into their thinking. Rugby have been successful in raising it's profile and revenue whilst protecting it's roots and traditions which is remarkable suppose.

The media have noticed where elite players are coming from though and are rightly starting to highlight the old rugby thinking which may require it to change in the future but for now the GAA don't have a competitior.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 509 - 03/11/2019 14:02:02    2247384

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Shamrock Rovers victory in the FAI cup today will mean Football is back in the capital.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1703 - 03/11/2019 19:23:51    2247482

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Replying To galwayford:  "Shamrock Rovers victory in the FAI cup today will mean Football is back in the capital."
Where did it go?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12741 - 03/11/2019 19:50:57    2247493

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Replying To sam1884:  "The point I'm making is in response to the title of this thread and some people raising concern about rugby competing with the GAA for elite players. Anybody can play a sport from any age and enjoy doing so. When we talk about genuine opportunties in that sport, in this case rugby it is a closed shop.

You say percentages are due to certain schools playing, training more and playing the game from the start of time. I'd say these schools have a very clear and open pathway to move through different structures of the game; a pathway which goes straight to the top of the game in Ireland.

It's the reason over 80% of senior Irish internationals or Provincial players come from this pathway. A flash in the pan talent might make it from a different upbringing but in the main if you don't come from a certain class or school you'll never be noticed and you certainly won't get the world class coaching from a young age to improve your game and allow you to rise through the ranks.

There is clubs and recreational rugby of course but the elite pathway is very much linked to college and class; it's evidence based look at the statisitics. For this reason the GAA won't ever come under pressure from rugby when it comes to having a sport for all mentality; it's what's great about the GAA, class doesn't come into their thinking. Rugby have been successful in raising it's profile and revenue whilst protecting it's roots and traditions which is remarkable suppose.

The media have noticed where elite players are coming from though and are rightly starting to highlight the old rugby thinking which may require it to change in the future but for now the GAA don't have a competitior."
It isnt the case you wont be noticed or get enough high level training as now the provinces have development squads for kids from age of 14/15 and kids from clubs are getting that training to help them develop.
Elite pathway in some places only is primarily fee paying schools. Class doesnt come into thinking in rugby either btw.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 335 - 03/11/2019 23:08:49    2247547

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Replying To sam1884:  "The point I'm making is in response to the title of this thread and some people raising concern about rugby competing with the GAA for elite players. Anybody can play a sport from any age and enjoy doing so. When we talk about genuine opportunties in that sport, in this case rugby it is a closed shop.

You say percentages are due to certain schools playing, training more and playing the game from the start of time. I'd say these schools have a very clear and open pathway to move through different structures of the game; a pathway which goes straight to the top of the game in Ireland.

It's the reason over 80% of senior Irish internationals or Provincial players come from this pathway. A flash in the pan talent might make it from a different upbringing but in the main if you don't come from a certain class or school you'll never be noticed and you certainly won't get the world class coaching from a young age to improve your game and allow you to rise through the ranks.

There is clubs and recreational rugby of course but the elite pathway is very much linked to college and class; it's evidence based look at the statisitics. For this reason the GAA won't ever come under pressure from rugby when it comes to having a sport for all mentality; it's what's great about the GAA, class doesn't come into their thinking. Rugby have been successful in raising it's profile and revenue whilst protecting it's roots and traditions which is remarkable suppose.

The media have noticed where elite players are coming from though and are rightly starting to highlight the old rugby thinking which may require it to change in the future but for now the GAA don't have a competitior."
I agree with some of your post but you cant say it is Rugby that is a closed shop when clearly there are several non fee-paying school players on the Irish Team and players from all religions, political and social backgrounds. But yet there are no Unionists on any county Teams - even in counties where they are in a majority !... Doesnt seem that it is rugby that is the closed shop?

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4427 - 04/11/2019 18:35:38    2247726

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "I agree with some of your post but you cant say it is Rugby that is a closed shop when clearly there are several non fee-paying school players on the Irish Team and players from all religions, political and social backgrounds. But yet there are no Unionists on any county Teams - even in counties where they are in a majority !... Doesnt seem that it is rugby that is the closed shop?"
That's a bit unfair on the GAA to compare participation between all Ireland rugby and Ulster GAA. A better metric is to compare how many unionists play GAA with how many Nationalists play rugby in NI

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 319 - 04/11/2019 19:39:24    2247744

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Replying To galwayford:  "Shamrock Rovers victory in the FAI cup today will mean Football is back in the capital."
Soccer is as exclusively a working class game as Rugby was elitist. All over the UK the middle class turn their back on playing soccer . In Ireland it's the same ..and the middle class are the majority of our population though not as noisy as at the working class

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1172 - 05/11/2019 15:58:35    2247942

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Replying To bad.monkey:  "I agree with some of your post but you cant say it is Rugby that is a closed shop when clearly there are several non fee-paying school players on the Irish Team and players from all religions, political and social backgrounds. But yet there are no Unionists on any county Teams - even in counties where they are in a majority !... Doesnt seem that it is rugby that is the closed shop?"
When was this survey of the politics of all intercounty players completed?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2296 - 05/11/2019 16:19:49    2247944

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Replying To bloodyban:  "Soccer is as exclusively a working class game as Rugby was elitist. All over the UK the middle class turn their back on playing soccer . In Ireland it's the same ..and the middle class are the majority of our population though not as noisy as at the working class"
Rugby isnt elitist. Never has been. Always open to all. Everywhere. Game dominated in some areas by those who go to fee paying schools ie part of Dublin. But rest isnt.
And what is middle class by the way?

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 335 - 05/11/2019 16:20:27    2247945

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