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Single Tier Championship Reforms

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How would you reform the championship without creating a second tier?

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 22/07/2019 12:15:00    2214627

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The 8 groups of 4 seeded using league positions is the obvious one. The GAA were against this when proposed by the GPA. I think they didn't want to get rid of the Provincials and they couldn't fit in a group phase afterwards them were the reasons I believe were given at the time. They did then go on to add the super 8s which is weird.

I've 2 methods of my own that could work.

Method 1

Give everyone 4 games to include any Provincial games up to and including the semifinal stage.

Week 1: Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds. 12 other interprovincial ties with 24 teams not involved.
Week 2: Provincial quarterfinals. 4 other interprovincial ties with 8 teams not involved.
Week 3: 16 interprovincial ties between teams who have made their semifinals against teams who haven't.
Week 4: Provincial semifinals, 8 interprovincial ties involving 16 teams eliminated before their semifinal.

Each team to get 2 home and 2 away ties.

2nd Phase:

20 teams through. 8 Provincial finalists, 12 other teams with best 4 game record.

Includes 2 more matches for each team to include Provincial finals.

12 teams to All Ireland playoffs to include 4 Provincial champions plus 8 other teams based on best 6 games records.

The 4 teams with the best 6 game record get a bye to the quarterfinals.

Method 2

Regular season of League and Provincial championship to create seeding.

Teams enter the championship depending on their seeding:

Round 1: 16 C seeds. 16 Lowest ranked teams from league not making their Provincial finals.

Based on this season that'd be the 16 teams in next years division 3 and 4 with Clare replacing Cork.

Round 2: 8 B seeds v round 1 winners.

B seeds are division 2 teams mainly but can include say Cork who got to a Provincial and lose Roscommon who won Connacht.

Round 3: 8 A seeds v round 2 winners

A seeds are 4 Provincial champions plus 4 best others from league.

Round 4 quarterfinals

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 22/07/2019 13:59:39    2214709

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "How would you reform the championship without creating a second tier?"
Start the league late, around April, and finish in June. This determines where you start in the knock out championship. First Sunday in July, 8 div 4 teams play at home to 8 div 3 teams. Two weeks later, the 8 winners play 8 division 2 teams. Two weeks later the 8 winners play at home to the 8 div. 1 teams. That leaves 8 for the AI quarter finals and so on.

The concept is simple, no confusing structures and no tin pot secondary trophies. All games are (hopefully fiercely contested) knock out games but no lambs are thrown to the slaughter either. It's effectively a tiered championship. Any div 4 team that plays a div 1 team has earned it and had a very memorable year in getting that far. Far better than a tin pot pot trophy.

No senior provincial championship but keep it for all other grades minor, U20, club championships etc.

The leagues could have a tiered start and finish also as div 1 teams won't play championship until about a month later than div 4 for example. By starting the league first an especially the championship first the div 3 and 4 teams have all the media attention. So Sunday Game in opening weeks is all about those teams so that improves their profile.

The leagues could be made more interesting by introducing playoffs between 3rd top team and 3rd bottom team in div above. A pre championship league play off to decide both promotion and what round of championship you start in would great great interest for the counties. Playing league games in summer will be huge IMO.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 22/07/2019 14:16:15    2214723

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Copied from one of my posts a while back:



I'm always interested in new championship proposals but have been reluctant to propose anything as it's not easy to maintain the provincials (which last Sunday showed is a must), while being fair to all counties and giving the weaker counties meaningful games.

I think hurling has shown us the way, to a degree, and I've also come to the conclusion that you can't give weaker counties meaningful games unless you add a 2nd tier - which some simply will never go for.

So I think the below is about as good as I can manage:



Provinces remain split, but London enter Ulster Championship. NY don't play the same province each year (I'll come to them later).


Ulster: 10 teams, 2 groups of 5, top team in each group make the Ulster final. Runner up in each group enters Q2

Leinster: Same as Ulster but with 6 teams in one group. So again 2 teams enter Q2 leaving 4 seeded teams there

Connaught: 1 group of 5 teams, top 2 play Connaught Final

Munster: 1 group of 6 teams, top 2 play Munster Final


We've now played 6 league groups and established Provincial finalists


4 provincial winners enter the All Ireland Quarter Finals
4 Provincial runners-up enter Q3


The 3rd place team in each of the 6 groups enters and open draw in Q1
Anyone who finished lower than 3rd is now eliminated from the championship (having played a minimum of 4 games).

Q1: 6 teams, 3 winners advance to Q2. New York now enter the championship.

Q2: NY and 3 Q1 winners drawn against the 4 teams who have qualified for Q2 via their groups, 4 winners advance

Q3: 4 Q2 winners play the provincial runners-up, 4 winners advance to All Ireland quarter finals.

The All-Ireland series reverts to the old system of straight knockout.



I think the above satisfies a lot of the criteria that causes an imbalance under current structures;
- all teams get a guaranteed 4 games, some are guaranteed 5
- provincials are maintained
- if the appetite is there for a 2nd tier, there are 14 teams who finish below 3rd in their groups who could now enter this
- New York aren't confined to just the one province
- the Super 8s are gone, and the intensity of matches increases as the summer goes on, no safety net from 1/4 final on

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 22/07/2019 14:34:34    2214737

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Group stage provincials are the most likely to implement. Couple of different was to do it

There have been a million different formats thrown out on this site but the GAA are nowhere near a combined league/championship or an open draw as many here are pushing for so prov group stage is the only option in terms of passing Congress

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 22/07/2019 14:36:03    2214738

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Divide the 32 teams into pools and seed teams into groups based on their performance in the League (and Provincials if they are retained). Or just randomly seed teams.

8 groups of 4. The top two teams advance to the knockout stages.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 22/07/2019 17:29:52    2214851

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "How would you reform the championship without creating a second tier?"
Hawkeye I have given yo my opinion to improve the lower counties on another posting so I will not repeat myself only to say that any modification to the present formats will do nothing to improve the bottom teams. More that half the county teams competing in both codes would not stand a chance against the top club teams. We all agree that the inter county scene is at least two if not three grades above club. So it is trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with no disrespect to these counties. It is only window dressing and always has been in the attempt to make us think there is a real planned agenda to improve these teams. Something much more radical is required.
Thanks for raising these issues because public opinion should matter.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2653 - 22/07/2019 18:03:30    2214873

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Replying To Canuck:  "Hawkeye I have given yo my opinion to improve the lower counties on another posting so I will not repeat myself only to say that any modification to the present formats will do nothing to improve the bottom teams. More that half the county teams competing in both codes would not stand a chance against the top club teams. We all agree that the inter county scene is at least two if not three grades above club. So it is trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear with no disrespect to these counties. It is only window dressing and always has been in the attempt to make us think there is a real planned agenda to improve these teams. Something much more radical is required.
Thanks for raising these issues because public opinion should matter."
I remember. I do think your proposal to combine counties would have merit if Irish people weren't so tribalistic. There are other issues. Clare and Tipp have both been competitive in football so I can't see them forming a team with Limerick and Waterford.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 22/07/2019 18:27:13    2214884

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Simple

Turn Provinces into 4 groups of eight. Alternate one Ulster team annually into Connacht & Two Leinster teams into Munster.

Then you can organise the championships evenly so that every single team plays once every four weeks. In between they could mandatory play for their clubs whilst the inter county game will always have matches every week to entertain.


Now how to solve the real problem of Dublin. Kick them out of Leinster. Let them play amongst themselves in the club championship from April to start of June.

The winning club from Dublin will then represent the county in the All Ireland championship as Dublin.

I'm only half serious but guys it could be the GAA's only answer to get the All Ireland championship competitive again.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 187 - 22/07/2019 18:58:21    2214901

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Ban Dublin from the c'ship.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 22/07/2019 19:22:06    2214913

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I remember. I do think your proposal to combine counties would have merit if Irish people weren't so tribalistic. There are other issues. Clare and Tipp have both been competitive in football so I can't see them forming a team with Limerick and Waterford."
Waterford were not the last team in division 4 this year. If fact were joint 3rd on points if you take out scoring differentials and better than both and Limerick and Wexford.
. We are still pathetic with zero chance of ever moving up. In the 2019 if all we are about is tribalism that is sad. Give counties the option to combine (not based on province) with funding and coaching resources the weaker counties not interested would have second thoughts. I personally would feel represented and support a football team made up of Kilkenny, Wexford Maybe Carlow and Waterford or some combination of that. Travel not an issue. 15 of the Waterford hurling team travels from Dublin to train. Some have another hour to get to West Waterford. Limerick and Clare should be together. Those teams may have occasional success but fleeting. We beat Kerry in 1958 when our football team was backboned by the great hurling team. That has not gone too well for us since.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2653 - 22/07/2019 19:51:18    2214934

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@Whammo86 -
You know I like both of those !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 22/07/2019 23:20:17    2215040

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Divide the 32 teams into pools and seed teams into groups based on their performance in the League (and Provincials if they are retained). Or just randomly seed teams.

8 groups of 4. The top two teams advance to the knockout stages."
Groups of 4 are too prone to dead rubbers - mainly due to a lower frequency of draws in GAA.

Instead - I'd go for a different 8x4 -
Allocate a pair of Div 1 and a pair of Div 4 teams to pools A1, A2, A3 & A4.
Then, allocate a pair of Div 2 and a pair of Div 3 teams to pools B1, B2, B3 & B4.
Merge pools with the same number (say, A3 & B3) to form 4 groups of 8 (incl say, AB3).
Each team plays 4 'A v B' group matches - 2 at home / 2 away.
Top 5 of 8 from each group advances to KO 20.
KO 1st Rd - AB1 v AB2 (non repeat pairings) - 1st hosts other 5th; 2nd hosts other 4th; stronger 3rd hosts other 3rd (5 winners advance, kept apart for 10-team Rd 2).
KO 1st Rd - AB3 v AB4 (non repeat pairings) - 1st hosts other 5th; 2nd hosts other 4th; stronger 3rd hosts other 3rd (5 winners advance, kept apart for 10-team Rd 2).
KO 2nd Rd - 5v5 (non repeat pairings) - 5 winners - 3 best records to SFs, 2 others to 1 QF - for SFs, avoid repeat pairings, if possible - otherwise, best v worst record.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 24/07/2019 02:14:48    2215553

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Replying To omahant:  "Groups of 4 are too prone to dead rubbers - mainly due to a lower frequency of draws in GAA.

Instead - I'd go for a different 8x4 -
Allocate a pair of Div 1 and a pair of Div 4 teams to pools A1, A2, A3 & A4.
Then, allocate a pair of Div 2 and a pair of Div 3 teams to pools B1, B2, B3 & B4.
Merge pools with the same number (say, A3 & B3) to form 4 groups of 8 (incl say, AB3).
Each team plays 4 'A v B' group matches - 2 at home / 2 away.
Top 5 of 8 from each group advances to KO 20.
KO 1st Rd - AB1 v AB2 (non repeat pairings) - 1st hosts other 5th; 2nd hosts other 4th; stronger 3rd hosts other 3rd (5 winners advance, kept apart for 10-team Rd 2).
KO 1st Rd - AB3 v AB4 (non repeat pairings) - 1st hosts other 5th; 2nd hosts other 4th; stronger 3rd hosts other 3rd (5 winners advance, kept apart for 10-team Rd 2).
KO 2nd Rd - 5v5 (non repeat pairings) - 5 winners - 3 best records to SFs, 2 others to 1 QF - for SFs, avoid repeat pairings, if possible - otherwise, best v worst record."
Your proposals tend to be convoluted. The format needs to be easy to follow.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 24/07/2019 10:36:15    2215635

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A proposal which retains regional divisions.

Divide the 32 teams into 4 conferences: North, East, West, and South.

The 4 conference champions advance to the All-Ireland semi-finals.

Northern Conference

Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Armagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.

Group A

Fermanagh
Tyrone
Monaghan
Derry

Group B

Armagh
Donegal
Antrim
Down

Eastern Conference

Dublin, Louth, Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Wicklow, and Laois.

Group A

Wicklow
Laois
Louth
Westmeath

Group B

Offaly
Kildare
Meath
Dublin

Southern Conference

Kerry, Limerick, Cork, Tipperary, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, and London.

Group A

Tipperary
London
Waterford
Kerry

Group B

Wexford
Limerick
Carlow
Cork

Western Conference

Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Longford, Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, and Clare.

Group A

Mayo
Clare
Roscommon
Cavan

Group B

Longford
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim

A backdoor could be introduced. The 4 highest ranked teams could play the conference losers. Alternatively, the 8 teams who finish 3rd in their group could play a wild card round. The winners will play against the conference losers and so on.

I know that it will hard for some teams to accept being moved out of their province but I've tried to retain the regional rivalries as much as I possibly could.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 24/07/2019 16:56:10    2215856

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A few years ago there was an idea to merge Ulster with Connacht and have an 11 team division made up of 7 and 4 teams respectively. Same with Munster and Leinster. Best 4 in their division from Ulster and Leinster and best 3 from Munster and Connacht would play their Provincial knockout stages.

Kilkenny were still playing then and the plan was to have a second tier of 11 teams with the remaining teams where the champion of that competition would play an All Ireland quarter final with one of the Provincial champions.

A modified version of this sort of idea could be a runner.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 24/07/2019 17:50:13    2215883

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "How would you reform the championship without creating a second tier?"
Have a round robin for the lower ranked teams as the Preliminary Round in the Championship with each team guaranteed three games and one qualifying. Rankings would be based on league postition. The winners of the prelim round would be in an open draw for the proviincial round proper

Games are all played three weekends in a row in May. Top team qualifies to enter the first round of their provincial and if beaten can still use the qualifiers so they are guaranteed 5 championship games. The other three are OUT completely. They had three games and didn't make the cut. (If you wanted a second tier you could start it with the 15 eliminated teams)

So it would look something like this:

Connaught
Sligo, Leitrim, London and NY - (might be problems with the NY leg but not insurmountable - The GAA/Connaught Council could cough up and have them over for a week to play two of the games)

Ulster
Antrim, Derry, Down, Armagh

Leinster - Two Groups
Wexford, Wicklow, Carlow, Offaly Longford, Louth, Laois and Westmeath.

Munster
Limerick, Waterford, Tipp and Cork (Cork is obviously an outlier but that's the way it goes)

There are all sorts of possibilities with this structure. You could have the super 8s or go back to the pre super 8s system with one QF game per team.

That's it - Problem Solved. They can rename Sam in my name when I'm gone :)

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 24/07/2019 19:31:38    2215926

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I have to ask how any of these format is going to change the standard of the bottom teams. Define what is going to be regarded as improvement, how it is going to be measured and what are the consequences when it fails like many changes before it for the last 100 years. I do appreciate that no one can predict an out come but if you do not have specific goals with time lines you are just stumbling around in the dark.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2653 - 24/07/2019 19:33:13    2215927

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Replying To Canuck:  "I have to ask how any of these format is going to change the standard of the bottom teams. Define what is going to be regarded as improvement, how it is going to be measured and what are the consequences when it fails like many changes before it for the last 100 years. I do appreciate that no one can predict an out come but if you do not have specific goals with time lines you are just stumbling around in the dark."
That's a difficult question to answer. I don't think any format will drastically alter the fortunes of the weakest teams. They won't address the funding issues. I am trying to address the numerical imbalances between the provinces. I do think it will make the Championship more competitive.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 24/07/2019 20:24:35    2215957

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "That's a difficult question to answer. I don't think any format will drastically alter the fortunes of the weakest teams. They won't address the funding issues. I am trying to address the numerical imbalances between the provinces. I do think it will make the Championship more competitive."
No you are basically looking at what will improve the lot (competitiveness) of the teams closest to the elites stopping at 12 approx teams. Number 12 won't compete in the next 100 years never mind number 33. The reality is the next 20 teams are so far out of their dept that Houdini could not help them compete with the top.Their standards are not close to the top clubs never mind the top counties. These formats are rubbish and anyone on here do not believe for a second that it will improve football in Kilkenny, Waterford , Carlow, Wexford etc. Again I say put the best players in these counties in position where they can succeed if you care about them. Otherwise tell it as it is, you do not give a sh-t about the bottom feeders.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2653 - 24/07/2019 21:02:27    2215981

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