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Should a motion be brought to congress seeking an equal seeding system across all football provincial championships?
Munster and Connaught - finalists given bye to semi-finals. Open draw at semi-final stage.
Leinster and Ulster - semi-finalists given bye to quarter-finals. Open draw at quarter-final stage.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7818 - 22/05/2019 22:39:57
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No. Entirely up to provinces and counties within those provinces to use whatever system they see fit and if you change things it should be something more radical and not window dressing ideas you are so fond of
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 22/05/2019 23:59:32
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The only Prov structures I'd retain are all Uls and 3 Prov Finals only elsewhere (top 2 NFL ranked in each Prov straight to Finals).
For hurling sized group stage -
Uls + London (2 groups of 5)
3 Other Provs (1 group of 6 Finalists)
Tier 2 (Next 6 NFL ranked, 2 to Final, Champ to Tier 1 QF Playoff in same year.
Tier 3 (Lowest 10, 2 groups of 5, 6 to Tier 3 KO).
BUT - to entertain your q - if dull Provs are to be retained - All prior year Prov Final 8 and SF 8 losers could start in current year SFs and QFs - other 16 playoff for 8 QF berths. That latter 16 could play an equal 1 playoff rd - if the Provs start as 4x8 - of that other 16, put most NW 1 of Lein's 3 lowest NFL ranked as well as Uls 9th ranked in Conn - other 2 of Lein 3 to Muns.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 23/05/2019 01:26:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "Should a motion be brought to congress seeking an equal seeding system across all football provincial championships?
Munster and Connaught - finalists given bye to semi-finals. Open draw at semi-final stage.
Leinster and Ulster - semi-finalists given bye to quarter-finals. Open draw at quarter-final stage." There's an open draw in Connaught because the need to rotate who plays NY and London each year.
Leinster already has the seeding system you outlined, where the previuos years' semi-finalists enter the quarter finals automatically.
Ulster is an open draw, with the exception that you cannot be drawn in the preliminary round twice in any 3 year period.
Munster's current system of letting Cork and Kerry into the semi finals is unfair. . .but it was a motion put forward by Clare county board (I think) and it passed by 5 votes to 1.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 23/05/2019 09:03:50
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All provinces feed into the qualifiers and All-Ireland series. A provincial seeding would help teams of a similar level enter rounds 1 and 2 of the qualifiers. It'll be more fair for all.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7818 - 23/05/2019 11:53:44
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I tried to get as much fairness out of the existing two-stream structure -
8 Prov SF losers join a current Qualifier 1st rd pairing in 8 groups of 3 in new Rd 1.
Top 2 in each join 4 Prov Final losers in 20-team KO Rd 2.
10 Rd 2 winners and 2 Champs Playoff losers in 12-team KO Rd 3.
6 Rd 3 winners and 2 unbeaten Champs to KO QFs.
With this, it almost doesn't matter how uneven the preceding Prov route was.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 23/05/2019 13:40:03
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Surely a fairer system would be equal seedings in the qualifiers?
In theory Kildare, Louth, Meath and Tyrone could lose this weekend and be drawn against the same teams they bet in the provincial prelims.
Win that and they'd be into Round 2 of the qualifiers where they'll join Sligo who'll have played and lost 1 game to get there, whereas Kildare, Louth, Meath or Tyrone would have won 2 games to get to the same stage.
if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 23/05/2019 16:31:24
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Given the numbers of respective provincial participants, no championship structure is perfect, but given that it contains the least meddling Ulster can rightly claim to be the fairest.
Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 357 - 24/05/2019 15:57:02
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Replying To Knoxboya: "Given the numbers of respective provincial participants, no championship structure is perfect, but given that it contains the least meddling Ulster can rightly claim to be the fairest." I think you'd need to look at how many times some Counties play the Preliminary Round and how many times the same counties appear on the 'softer' side of the draw before you could claim Ulster to be the fairest.
opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 500 - 24/05/2019 16:06:44
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Replying To opa01: "I think you'd need to look at how many times some Counties play the Preliminary Round and how many times the same counties appear on the 'softer' side of the draw before you could claim Ulster to be the fairest." It's luck of the draw though.
I think for excitement purposes going with open draws at every round and not making the draws until after the previous round is played could spice things up a bit.
If you're in Dublin's half of the draw in Leinster you're very realistically going to win a minimum of 3 games to emerge from the qualifiers. It must be tough for players to know that's the championship staring in front of them.
In the marginal cases it could tip the balance to someone not committing to the county team.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4203 - 24/05/2019 18:20:56
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Ulster Championship
Round robin format
Top 2 Group A progress to Ulster final
Bottom of group A relegated
Top of group B promoted and progress to playoffs
Group A
Armagh
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Cavan
Group B
Down
Derry
Antrim
Fermanagh
Leinster Championship
Group A
Dublin
Meath
Kildare
Laois
Westmeath
Longford
Group B
Carlow
Louth
Wexford
Offaly
Wicklow
Round Robin format
Top 2 Group A progress to Leinster final
Bottom of group A relegated
Top of group B promoted and progress to playoffs
Connacht and Munster Championship
Open draw from group B for playoff with New York for entry into group B
Group A
Galway
Kerry
Mayo
Roscommon
Cork
Clare
Group B
Leitrim
Waterford
Sligo
London
Tipp
Round robin format
Top 2 of group A progress to final
Top of group B promoted and progress to playoffs
Bottom of group A relegated
All Ireland Playoffs (B)
1st group B Ulster Vs 1st Group B Leinster
1st group B Connacht/Munster vs Highest ranking national league team div 3/4 out of competition
(B) finalist vs highest ranked div 1/2 team out of competition for place in quarter final
Ulster provincial winner Vs Leinster beaten provincial finalist
Leinster provincial winner vs Ulster beaten finalist
Connacht/Munster winner vs (B) finalist/league team
(B) playoff winner vs Connacht/Munster finalist
armagh2k2 (Armagh) - Posts: 14 - 27/05/2019 15:25:53
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Replying To opa01: "I think you'd need to look at how many times some Counties play the Preliminary Round and how many times the same counties appear on the 'softer' side of the draw before you could claim Ulster to be the fairest." The rule is now in place to limit how often a team can be drawn in the preliminary round.
As for the "softer side" of the draw - if you introduce something to try to change that, you're probably making the whole thing less fair.
Giving all teams 3 games to win the Ulster title is very fair. With 9 counties competing, there has to be a preliminary round so the way it is now is as fair as I think it can be.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5010 - 27/05/2019 16:03:57
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If every match was decided by the toss of a coin, a team with a bye to the provincial semi final has almost 3 times better chance of winning the All Ireland than a team drawn in the preliminary round. This is unfair. All teams should be in the provincial quarter final. See below three possible ways of achieving this.
1. Move one team from Ulster and one team from Leinster to Connacht. Move two teams from Leinster to Munster.
2. Same as 1. above except teams take turns in the 'wrong' province.
3. Play the preliminary rounds as at present but move the losers to the quarter finals of the wrong province.
My preference is for 2. above. I don't think suggestion 1. would be acceptable to counties being permanently 'exiled' from their native province. Suggestion 3. allows all teams to play in their 'native' province but renders the preliminary round less meaningful.
If the teams in Ulster and Leinster are happy with the current unfairness, then leave it as it is.
tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 27/05/2019 17:14:17
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Replying To tommy58: "If every match was decided by the toss of a coin, a team with a bye to the provincial semi final has almost 3 times better chance of winning the All Ireland than a team drawn in the preliminary round. This is unfair. All teams should be in the provincial quarter final. See below three possible ways of achieving this.
1. Move one team from Ulster and one team from Leinster to Connacht. Move two teams from Leinster to Munster.
2. Same as 1. above except teams take turns in the 'wrong' province.
3. Play the preliminary rounds as at present but move the losers to the quarter finals of the wrong province.
My preference is for 2. above. I don't think suggestion 1. would be acceptable to counties being permanently 'exiled' from their native province. Suggestion 3. allows all teams to play in their 'native' province but renders the preliminary round less meaningful.
If the teams in Ulster and Leinster are happy with the current unfairness, then leave it as it is." Option 3 - is essentially, the Eugene McGee 4x8.
I like the 4x8, but in lieu of Prelim games, put the Lein Northwest 1 of 3 lowest Lein ranked in NFL along with Uls 9th ranked in the NFL in Conn KO. The other 2 of 3 Lein weakest to Muns KO.
Overall, this still is a 'plaster' on the 125+ years structure ! If we have to retain the semblance of the Prov structure, in some form - I will post this next !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/05/2019 00:58:03
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Here goes -
Prov Champps - 12 teams in two groups - an 'Ulster 6' round robin (highest 6 of 9 NFL ranked) and the 'Rest 6' round robin (highest 2 NFL ranked of the Other 3 Provs to respective Prov Finals, a subset of group play).
A 3rd 'McDonagh Cup' style group, featuring the 'Best 6' NFL ranked, not yet captured in the Uls/Rest groups.
Like hurling, top 2 in the 3rd group play Prelim QFs against the two Prov group 3rds.
Other 14 - play in two groups of 7 - top 4 in each and bottom 4 in the McD group - parachuted down to 12-team Tier 2 KO - Last 4 go up (or retain McD Cup status in the foollowing year).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 29/05/2019 01:15:34
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Is there merit in the following:
Start the National Football League in January without any pre-season competition.
Follow-up the league with the provincial championships:
Munster defeated semi-finalists contest McGrath Cup final.
Connaught defeated semi-finalists contest Connaught Cup final.
Ulster defeated quarter-finalists contest McKenna Cup semi-finals.
Leinster defeated quarter-finalists contest O'Byrne Cup semi-finals.
8 provincial round 1 losers contest Murphy Cup quarter-finals. Murphy Cup final played as Croke Park curtain raiser ahead of Leinster final.
After a club only month, a separate tiered All-Ireland Championship can get onto full swing.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7818 - 04/06/2019 20:27:07
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