National Forum

This Lark Of Doing Away With Provincial Championships (Football Anway)

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "There are more than enough means to promote a properly run, sponsored, funded and well organised 2nd tier. The LGFA have done it for years and they are thriving. Of course the weaker counties need to vote it in and already a number of managers from weaker counties have spoken out and said they want it e.g. Ciaran Deely's comments after London lost their opening game this year "I think it's the only way that teams, like ourselves in Division Four, can develop and keep improving. We'd love to be in a competition that we've a real chance of winning." Terry Highland and Liam Kearns have said similar although the latter with a word of caution about how it needs to be promoted. The second tier is inevitable and if done correctly I believe it can be a roaring success."
If the majority of the players in so-called weaker counties vote it in, fair play to them. Have your friends in college from so-called weaker counties ever commented on the standards in the college team, or of standards of the college players from stronger counties, compared to standards in their own county setup?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7335 - 16/05/2019 16:37:11    2184664

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Yes I have often said on here that there is no need to tear everything up, move the league to the summer and overlap it with a slimmed down championship and you have everyone playing meaningful football in the good summer months.

We can argue about formats etc until the cows come home but I believe that's the answer long term."
Something simple enough would see 7 rounds of league, 4 rounds of Provincial championship, 3 designated rounds in each code of club championship in the 17 weeks of April, May, June and July. August September for a slimmed down All Ireland.

Either a 2 tier by 16 team knock out or a seeded tournament with all 32 teams entering, maybe at 3 different stages depending on their league and Provincial performance.

In my opinion that's a very good season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 16/05/2019 18:47:33    2184689

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Replying To yew_tree:  "It's ridiculous that at every level in the GAA we have a graded system except the senior championship...Mulligan has left Leitrim again Insee probably dissalusioned."
Mulligan didn't get a start against Roscommon. He has starred with Leitrim since 2008 so was unlikely to put himself through the mill of training for a place on the bench.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 16/05/2019 19:13:35    2184699

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "There are more than enough means to promote a properly run, sponsored, funded and well organised 2nd tier. The LGFA have done it for years and they are thriving. Of course the weaker counties need to vote it in and already a number of managers from weaker counties have spoken out and said they want it e.g. Ciaran Deely's comments after London lost their opening game this year "I think it's the only way that teams, like ourselves in Division Four, can develop and keep improving. We'd love to be in a competition that we've a real chance of winning." Terry Highland and Liam Kearns have said similar although the latter with a word of caution about how it needs to be promoted. The second tier is inevitable and if done correctly I believe it can be a roaring success."
Kind of at odds with his captain Liam Gavaghan's comments on a recent balls.ie podcast. He said he wouldn't like to lose the chance to test himself against the big players if there was a tiered system.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 16/05/2019 21:52:02    2184738

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All you need to do is look at the Championship and League one play-off semi-finals over the last week to see how Tiered Competition Formats can be a success.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 16/05/2019 22:15:47    2184747

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Replying To Greenfield:  "Kind of at odds with his captain Liam Gavaghan's comments on a recent balls.ie podcast. He said he wouldn't like to lose the chance to test himself against the big players if there was a tiered system."
I'm pretty sure he said that he wouldn't like to lose the opportunity but also that if predictinaly beaten as has happened year on year for them he wouldn't be against falling into a two tier second championship either so it's a bit of both worlds he fancies.

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 16/05/2019 22:35:58    2184752

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "If the majority of the players in so-called weaker counties vote it in, fair play to them. Have your friends in college from so-called weaker counties ever commented on the standards in the college team, or of standards of the college players from stronger counties, compared to standards in their own county setup?"
I think it's fair to say that a top Sigerson team having the pick of the country would give most intercounty teams outside the top few a decent run for their money so you're not really comparing apples with apples there.

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 16/05/2019 22:38:48    2184753

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Replying To Ban:  "All you need to do is look at the Championship and League one play-off semi-finals over the last week to see how Tiered Competition Formats can be a success."
Could you please explain your logic there Ban? Top 2 nailed on promoted then a play off for the next 4 in the Championship. The playoff final used to be called the biggest prize in soccer. Very little chance any of the three promoted Championship teams can compete with the standard and wealth of the Premier League clubs. Maybe Aston Villa might. I can only see promoted tier two counties lasting a short spell in tier one. Unless the powers that be can give them a bit of competition above their level outside the championship.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7335 - 16/05/2019 22:55:29    2184754

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Yes I have often said on here that there is no need to tear everything up, move the league to the summer and overlap it with a slimmed down championship and you have everyone playing meaningful football in the good summer months.

We can argue about formats etc until the cows come home but I believe that's the answer long term."
How would you slim down the Provs ?
I'd force the 4x8 - put most northwest 1 of Lein's NFL ranked worst 3 and Uls 9th ranked in Conn and Lein's other worst 2 of 3 in Muns.
Then, the prior year Prov Final 8 and losing SF 8 would start this year in Prov SFs and QFs, respectively, with other 16 playing in Prov 1st rd.
The best teams, like Dubs, Kerry, Tyrone and Mayo would only play two Prov matches alongside its summer league games.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 17/05/2019 00:06:57    2184769

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Could you please explain your logic there Ban? Top 2 nailed on promoted then a play off for the next 4 in the Championship. The playoff final used to be called the biggest prize in soccer. Very little chance any of the three promoted Championship teams can compete with the standard and wealth of the Premier League clubs. Maybe Aston Villa might. I can only see promoted tier two counties lasting a short spell in tier one. Unless the powers that be can give them a bit of competition above their level outside the championship."
That's absolutely not true.

Wolves stayed up last year. Fulham were awful but Cardiff could easily have stayed up at say Brighton's expense.

The season before all 3 promoted teams stayed up.

You'll be looking at next season, outside of the top 6 you maybe have Leicester and Everton who are very unlikely to be in trouble. Outside of that any team is at risk.

This is professional sport here and the competitive and financial advantage of being in the Premier League compared to the championship is going to be much bigger than that in Gaelic.

A team winning a tier 2 title will absolutely be competitive the following year.

In the national league you often see back to back promotions or relegations. I don't see that changing hugely. There's not a huge amount of difference between in and around the middle of the pack. Anywhere from say the 7/8th best team down to maybe the 22nd best team is really competitive.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 17/05/2019 05:23:36    2184786

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Replying To Htaem:  "I know what you're saying and I to can see plenty of merit in a Jim McGuinness style format. The crucial point being that everybody starts off with equal opportunity to play at the top level, ie win your provincial and you're playing for Sam, regardless of your league standing. That's good, that's the way it should be.

I don't think club and county can really be compared though. County is the elite level of Gaa, it requires huge commitment and sacrifice and of course the championship has nearly always contained the 31 counties (minus Kilkenny) and London & NY.

Club is far more diverse, you have thousands of people playing club for all sorts of different reasons, some put in as much effort as the county lads/ladies, others are playing to keep fit, others love being part of the local team, some are in their 40s and still playing for the sheer love of it etc etc. Also, tiers have existed for years at club level, they're nothing new but they work for the reasons outlined about.

Not everybody wants to play senior football at club level, but county is a different animal."
I also get what you're saying. People play club football for a variety of reasons and have different outlooks on the amount of commitment they're willing/able to give. That's what reserve and junior B, C are for.

But at the same time there are the haves and have nots at club level. Short of there being an absolute golden generation of players there are some small clubs that are just destined to remain junior level through no fault of their own. Just down to geography and available resources. In Donegal I'd give you the example of a club like Pettigo (small town on the Fermanagh border) with St Eunans Letterkenny.

If we apply the same logic to county compare Leitrim with Dublin. We're always quick and correct to laud every county team for their efforts. Why not offer them a real and tangible reward for their efforts instead of the patronising pats on the head we give them now if they muster an odd win or two in Championship football as we do now?

The GAA should properly market and reward a secondary competition. Link it with the league and provincials so that as previously mentioned every team has the opportunity each year to compete for Sam if they're good enough. Reward the winners with the same Gala ball style dinner in the Burlo and send them on a team holiday in the knowledge they're guaranteed Sam Maguire participation next year.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9115 - 17/05/2019 06:08:05    2184789

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Replying To Whammo86:  "That's absolutely not true.

Wolves stayed up last year. Fulham were awful but Cardiff could easily have stayed up at say Brighton's expense.

The season before all 3 promoted teams stayed up.

You'll be looking at next season, outside of the top 6 you maybe have Leicester and Everton who are very unlikely to be in trouble. Outside of that any team is at risk.

This is professional sport here and the competitive and financial advantage of being in the Premier League compared to the championship is going to be much bigger than that in Gaelic.

A team winning a tier 2 title will absolutely be competitive the following year.

In the national league you often see back to back promotions or relegations. I don't see that changing hugely. There's not a huge amount of difference between in and around the middle of the pack. Anywhere from say the 7/8th best team down to maybe the 22nd best team is really competitive."
It's my opinion. I'm talking about the three clubs that will be promoted from this season's Championship. Possibly all three could stay up, but I think it's unlikely. Wolves are the best promoted team for mants a day. Their problem now might be keeping ciach and squad intact as the bigger hawks are circling. I don't see being competitive and narrowly avoiding relegation as being the same thing either. Currently Division 3 and 4 teams have some, very few tests, against Division 2 and 1 teams in Championship so they are at least tested at a higher level. A Tiered system ensures they'll play at a lower level. Better chance for a promoted team to survive in Tier One if they have some means while in Tier 2, maybe not league or championship, to play teams of a higher standard.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7335 - 17/05/2019 09:54:57    2184813

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Replying To omahant:  "How would you slim down the Provs ?
I'd force the 4x8 - put most northwest 1 of Lein's NFL ranked worst 3 and Uls 9th ranked in Conn and Lein's other worst 2 of 3 in Muns.
Then, the prior year Prov Final 8 and losing SF 8 would start this year in Prov SFs and QFs, respectively, with other 16 playing in Prov 1st rd.
The best teams, like Dubs, Kerry, Tyrone and Mayo would only play two Prov matches alongside its summer league games."
I'd remove the provincials from the championship altogether and let them be played as standalone competitions in the spring if there is an appetite. They are a good competition in Ulster and to a lesser extent Connacht but the variance in the numbers competing makes for an imbalance in the championship. They are not fit for purpose any more unfortunately.

If you've a summer league all you need is a straight 32 team knockout competition to ensure it can all run off on a definite schedule and everyone has the same chance at the start. It would probably need to be seeded with two pots Divs 1 & 2 and Divs 3 & 4. League to finish by end of August and championship should be wrapped up by mid September. You've a clear timetable at the start so players and their families can plan holidays and weddings etc etc without worrying about whether it'll clash with a match.

What we have now is a mess of a season that start in January and ends in August with a big gap in the middle. Play it off over five months and let players have a proper break after their county championship.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 17/05/2019 10:17:07    2184822

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I also get what you're saying. People play club football for a variety of reasons and have different outlooks on the amount of commitment they're willing/able to give. That's what reserve and junior B, C are for.

But at the same time there are the haves and have nots at club level. Short of there being an absolute golden generation of players there are some small clubs that are just destined to remain junior level through no fault of their own. Just down to geography and available resources. In Donegal I'd give you the example of a club like Pettigo (small town on the Fermanagh border) with St Eunans Letterkenny.

If we apply the same logic to county compare Leitrim with Dublin. We're always quick and correct to laud every county team for their efforts. Why not offer them a real and tangible reward for their efforts instead of the patronising pats on the head we give them now if they muster an odd win or two in Championship football as we do now?

The GAA should properly market and reward a secondary competition. Link it with the league and provincials so that as previously mentioned every team has the opportunity each year to compete for Sam if they're good enough. Reward the winners with the same Gala ball style dinner in the Burlo and send them on a team holiday in the knowledge they're guaranteed Sam Maguire participation next year."
I know you have to be realistic, it is difficult for counties with smaller populations and resources to compete, or certainly to consistently compete anyway. Although it can be done, Monaghan have performed remarkably well in recent years with a population of just 61k

Anyway again, I have no issue with tiers in the championship provided everybody starts off with an equal opportunity. This is why I like Jim McGuinness's proposal, every county has a clear route to Sam at the start of every year and how you perform after that determines where you end up.

The big issue is promotion though, the Gaa has no prior history of properly promoting 2nd and subsequent tiers in football or hurling. We seen this with the Tommy Murphy cup, we can see this currently with the lower hurling tiers and the broadcasters are even worse, they don't want to know anything outside of Sam or Liam.

I would find it very hard to trust the Gaa or broadcasters with lower tiers and I'd imagine this is a big concern for counties that would be effected be a tiered structure.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 17/05/2019 10:27:16    2184829

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "It's my opinion. I'm talking about the three clubs that will be promoted from this season's Championship. Possibly all three could stay up, but I think it's unlikely. Wolves are the best promoted team for mants a day. Their problem now might be keeping ciach and squad intact as the bigger hawks are circling. I don't see being competitive and narrowly avoiding relegation as being the same thing either. Currently Division 3 and 4 teams have some, very few tests, against Division 2 and 1 teams in Championship so they are at least tested at a higher level. A Tiered system ensures they'll play at a lower level. Better chance for a promoted team to survive in Tier One if they have some means while in Tier 2, maybe not league or championship, to play teams of a higher standard."
Ok fair enough.

For the record I don't think Provincials should be done away with.

I don't even think they should be separated from the All Ireland completely.

I do think they should be played before the main All Ireland and it should be tiered.

You could bring group stages into the Provincials to get weaker teams playing better teams.

Groups of 3 in Ulster, Munster and Connacht. 2 groups of 4 and 1 of 3 in Leinster. Something along those lines could work.

Provincial champions plus 12 other teams in the top championship, which would involve say 2 groups of 8.

Lower tier finalists guaranteed a place the following season. Something along those lines would be a proper schedule of games for teams. It's a quirk of the GAA that championship implies a knockout/tournament style competition whereas in other sports championship usually means the league. It's also weird that our league is the secondary competition and is a distant second and played at a terrible time of the year.

That's what needs to be fixed. More games of note in the primary competition and they need to have meaning. That's why promotion and relegation can make things interesting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 17/05/2019 10:29:57    2184832

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Replying To Htaem:  "I know you have to be realistic, it is difficult for counties with smaller populations and resources to compete, or certainly to consistently compete anyway. Although it can be done, Monaghan have performed remarkably well in recent years with a population of just 61k

Anyway again, I have no issue with tiers in the championship provided everybody starts off with an equal opportunity. This is why I like Jim McGuinness's proposal, every county has a clear route to Sam at the start of every year and how you perform after that determines where you end up.

The big issue is promotion though, the Gaa has no prior history of properly promoting 2nd and subsequent tiers in football or hurling. We seen this with the Tommy Murphy cup, we can see this currently with the lower hurling tiers and the broadcasters are even worse, they don't want to know anything outside of Sam or Liam.

I would find it very hard to trust the Gaa or broadcasters with lower tiers and I'd imagine this is a big concern for counties that would be effected be a tiered structure."
If they do go with two tiers I think the broadcasting rights should be sold in two lots. I'd much prefer TG4 or TV3 had the rights to tier 2 and cover it properly than leaving it with RTE who will show a 30 second snippet of important games if we are lucky.

RTE or Sky probably wouldn't even bother bidding for Lot 2

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 17/05/2019 11:05:20    2184846

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Replying To Htaem:  "I know you have to be realistic, it is difficult for counties with smaller populations and resources to compete, or certainly to consistently compete anyway. Although it can be done, Monaghan have performed remarkably well in recent years with a population of just 61k

Anyway again, I have no issue with tiers in the championship provided everybody starts off with an equal opportunity. This is why I like Jim McGuinness's proposal, every county has a clear route to Sam at the start of every year and how you perform after that determines where you end up.

The big issue is promotion though, the Gaa has no prior history of properly promoting 2nd and subsequent tiers in football or hurling. We seen this with the Tommy Murphy cup, we can see this currently with the lower hurling tiers and the broadcasters are even worse, they don't want to know anything outside of Sam or Liam.

I would find it very hard to trust the Gaa or broadcasters with lower tiers and I'd imagine this is a big concern for counties that would be effected be a tiered structure."
Nail on head my man. The appetite for change has to come from the top brass and has to be seen to genuine and properly marketed. Same with the media.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9115 - 17/05/2019 11:48:47    2184867

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What problem are we actually talking about solving?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 17/05/2019 13:22:18    2184911

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Replying To Ban:  "What problem are we actually talking about solving?"
How to make a more interesting, higher quality championship and one which is properly promoted, covered and suits all parties.

That's kind if it I suppose.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 17/05/2019 14:15:39    2184941

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "If they do go with two tiers I think the broadcasting rights should be sold in two lots. I'd much prefer TG4 or TV3 had the rights to tier 2 and cover it properly than leaving it with RTE who will show a 30 second snippet of important games if we are lucky.

RTE or Sky probably wouldn't even bother bidding for Lot 2"
A lower tier package could work, I'd watch some of the games for example but would they have enough appeal for a broadcaster to pick them up, it could be a difficult sell.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 17/05/2019 14:17:27    2184942

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