National Forum

2Nd Tier Championship....Catch Yourself On

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I have always been against a 2nd tier competition and the Tommy Murphy
cup was a disaster limiting div 4 teams to play div 4 teams forever.

But one thing iv noticed the last few years is the exodus of players
from div 3 and 4 counties to the states for the summer.

If the players are voting with their feet it may be time to consider
an All Ireland B for div 3 and 4 teams.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 972 - 14/05/2019 09:24:48    2183887

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Replying To The_analyser:  "We already have tiers its called the NFL! the championship is our cup competition and England they have the same called the FA or league cup where AFC Wimbledon can face Liverpool."
100!!!!! why we want to create another league just makes no sense to me!!! we have a tiered competition and it is working really well. the biggest issue is that its continued to be played throughout the spring in the worst weather that Ireland gets in a calendar year. its played off like a mini Sevens competition to get it over and done with so we can get on with dreaming about the white heat of championship which doesn't spark until semi final stage!!!
There's absolutely nothing stopping the GAA to reshuffle the league and championship to allow league games and finals to be played in summer!!! there's also nothing stopping the GAA from marketing the league to allow it reach its full potential. the answer to footballs problems at the moment is literally on front of our noses.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 365 - 14/05/2019 11:04:17    2183921

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I actually feel sorry for the GAA trying to find a solution that is going to keep everyone happy going on the comments here. My main considerations would be:

1) An approach based on inclusion and not exclusion and therefore every county each year gets a crack at Sam. Sport in general is based on aspiring to be the best and in order to be the best you need to be pitting yourselves against them.
2) I'd leave the league as it is as it is very entertaining and competitive and has been for quite a while. Final league standings should feed into deciding upon a counties coefficient/ranking then before the championship.
3) Come championship time I'd have 8 groups of 4 containing your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds based on your league ranking.
4) Each county gets 3 games to start off and top 2 from each group compete for Sam and bottom two enter a second tier championship group structure (again seeded depending if you finish second bottom or bottom in previous round of fixtures) which guarantees them another 3 games before knockout phases. Play the second tier final the same day as the main final and give it proper exposure. If Div 4 teams in the current set up are running Div 2 teams close then they can still cause an upset in the group format and potentially finish higher in the table than teams in a higher league division.

Of course there's issues with the above - will players head off/emigrate etc if they are knocked out of the Sam championship. Potentially yes but that gives opportunities to others to play and develop. I think potentially playing in Croke Park on All Ireland final day should be enough for any lad to want to stay around though.

Scheduling of the above is of course key but I think everyone agrees football needs to be played when the weather is at it's best. (as much as Ireland allows of course!)

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 145 - 14/05/2019 12:02:09    2183944

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Take a look at the results from the weekend. Division 4 Derry winning with just over 5 minutes left on the clock. Division 3 Offaly leading for a considerable length of time against Meath, Meath falling over the line. Wicklow running Kildare close. Division 4 Limerick (who lost 5 on the bounce) trouncing Tipperary and Clare scrapping over the line against Waterford.

So where are all these hammerings that suggest we need a second-tier championship? Even go back to last weekend and London gave Galway a serious game. The only game from the weekend that could be used to argue for a second tier championship was the Roscommon v Leitrim game."
Fact is already London, Leitrim, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Offaly and Derry are beaten in 1st round as there almost every year. One very minor upset, Tipp who finished bottom of Div 2 and will play in 3 next year lost to Limerick. Brolly is 100% correct there needs to be 3 groups. Also, its a scandal that only Connacht teams have to travel outside the country which is a major setback to their prep for championship. At least Mayo used their trip as part of a training camp this year. The winner of DIV 4 NFL should travel to NY, the winner of DIV 3 to London. NY who have never won a competitive game are after getting hammered by DIV 1 Mayo and wont have another game until they get hammered by DIV 1 Galway in 2020, its a total humbug. As far as the games last weekend being close on the scoreboard goes, nothing can be read into it apart from the fact that teams who are likely to be in the super 8s are trying to do just enough and not show their full hand in May.

martinjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 413 - 14/05/2019 12:13:14    2183946

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Replying To martinjoe:  "Fact is already London, Leitrim, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Offaly and Derry are beaten in 1st round as there almost every year. One very minor upset, Tipp who finished bottom of Div 2 and will play in 3 next year lost to Limerick. Brolly is 100% correct there needs to be 3 groups. Also, its a scandal that only Connacht teams have to travel outside the country which is a major setback to their prep for championship. At least Mayo used their trip as part of a training camp this year. The winner of DIV 4 NFL should travel to NY, the winner of DIV 3 to London. NY who have never won a competitive game are after getting hammered by DIV 1 Mayo and wont have another game until they get hammered by DIV 1 Galway in 2020, its a total humbug. As far as the games last weekend being close on the scoreboard goes, nothing can be read into it apart from the fact that teams who are likely to be in the super 8s are trying to do just enough and not show their full hand in May."
Fact is most of those games were competitive. So you think underdogs aren't allowed to play against a side if they're going to be competitive? They have to win or they aren't allowed to play.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4969 - 15/05/2019 09:43:10    2184229

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The inclusion / exclusion point could be argued either way - e.g. should non-league teams play Champions League material in the English FA Cup ?

Maybe the compromise is - as one of the options tabled by GAA HQ is put - everyone gets a shot at their Prov first - then after one defeat, straight into a graded Tier 1 or Tier 2.

I am firmly in favour of granting Tier 2 Champ or Finalists a place at the top table in the following year - makes Tier 2 title more tangible.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 15/05/2019 13:30:22    2184290

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "I actually feel sorry for the GAA trying to find a solution that is going to keep everyone happy going on the comments here. My main considerations would be:

1) An approach based on inclusion and not exclusion and therefore every county each year gets a crack at Sam. Sport in general is based on aspiring to be the best and in order to be the best you need to be pitting yourselves against them.
2) I'd leave the league as it is as it is very entertaining and competitive and has been for quite a while. Final league standings should feed into deciding upon a counties coefficient/ranking then before the championship.
3) Come championship time I'd have 8 groups of 4 containing your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds based on your league ranking.
4) Each county gets 3 games to start off and top 2 from each group compete for Sam and bottom two enter a second tier championship group structure (again seeded depending if you finish second bottom or bottom in previous round of fixtures) which guarantees them another 3 games before knockout phases. Play the second tier final the same day as the main final and give it proper exposure. If Div 4 teams in the current set up are running Div 2 teams close then they can still cause an upset in the group format and potentially finish higher in the table than teams in a higher league division.

Of course there's issues with the above - will players head off/emigrate etc if they are knocked out of the Sam championship. Potentially yes but that gives opportunities to others to play and develop. I think potentially playing in Croke Park on All Ireland final day should be enough for any lad to want to stay around though.

Scheduling of the above is of course key but I think everyone agrees football needs to be played when the weather is at it's best. (as much as Ireland allows of course!)"
I agree with this. The current issue, as many county players have voiced, is that in order to close the gap so-called weaker counties need more games against better opposition not less. The trouble with this is it takes a longer term (5 years minimum) plan.

But the way the GAA is going is too short-term - let's get more evenly balanced games for a better spectacle and more revenue - at the expense of the long term and bringing all the so-called weaker teams up to the level of the stronger teams. Wouldn't it be great in the future to have 20 teams capable of reaching the semi-finals?

The elephant in the room is the Provincial Championships - until they're gone from the AI-Series nothing will change. The other option to the above is, instead of 8 groups of 4, have 4 groups of 8. All counties would have a minimum of 7 tough championship games with top two of each group going into QFs. With a seeded (based on League) format all teams would have a chance of winning some of the games.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 474 - 24/05/2019 16:04:28    2187143

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So 3 "Interdivisional" matches yesterday
Div 1 beats Div 4 by 14 points
Div 2 beats Div 3 by 15 points
Div 1 beats Div 3 by 26 points

3 matches won easily by the favourites by an average 18.3 points

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 342 - 26/05/2019 08:24:21    2187492

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I do feel a lot could be helped by having an early Provincial championship followed by a proper league based season for all.

Tier 1 of 12 teams made up of 4 Provincial champions, 6 best from previous season's tier 1 and finalists from previous season's tier 2.

Tier 2 and 3 of 10 teams each.

Get teams playing proper matches in the good weather.

Teams still get the chance to dream. If a lower level team wins their Provincial championship at the start of the year they move on to compete in the top tier at the expense of the 10th placed team from the following season.

Games are meaningful between teams around the same level.

In hurling there's a choice of how it's run. Maybe 3 tiers of 12,12,11 or 4 tiers of 12,8,8,7 or 10,10,8,7.

Just get teams playing games in the summer against teams around their level.

May, June, July and August are 17 weekends, it's possible to have 11 rounds of inter county games plus 3 club games in each code for players. The fixtures are well scheduled and more games are played at the time of year when they should be played.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2602 - 26/05/2019 14:16:48    2187609

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If NFL and AIC is not merged, my ever changing preferred choice for the AIC is to have 5 'hurling-sized' groups of 5 (played in 6 weeks, with byes as A, BCD, E, ABC, B, C) and a weak group of other 7.

I'm not sure how best to split the 5x5 across 3 tiers (with the weak 7 always in Tier 3) - it could be - (3,2,0); (2,3,0); (2,2,1).

I was with (3,2,0) - 15 teams starting Tier 1 - but maybe that's too many. Let's evaluate (2,3,0).
Tier 1 (5,5); Tier 2 (5,5,5); Tier 3 (3 v 2,2).
After a 4-match round per team (except in Tier 3, the trio plays the other 4 only, and the pairs play head to head) - the weakest teams in a tier parachute down to play in the KO of one tier below in the same year (like Champions League group 3rds entering the Europa League). Each tier KO as follows -

Tier 1 KO 6+ (3,3) plus Prov KO Champs played in parallel (byes to SFs for 'advancing twice' or with best group record, if necessary).

Tier 2 KO 13 (3,3,3) plus 4 teams parachuted down from the tier above (3 group winners get byes).
In Rd 1, the upper tier 4ths host the worst 2 lower tier 3rds, while 3 2nds host the 2 5ths and 1 3rd.
Last 4 go up to Tier 1 (or retain upper tier place).

Tier 3 KO 10 (best 4 of 7) plus 6 teams parachuted down from the tier above (3 upper tier 4ths and top 3 in lower tier get byes).
Last 6 go up to Tier 2 (or retain upper tier place, after playoff rd with QF losers).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 26/05/2019 20:26:53    2187787

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Or, with (2,2,1).
Tier 1 (5,5); Tier 2 (5,5); Tier 3 (5, and 3 v 2,2).
Tier 1 KO 6+, this is (3,3) plus Prov Champs.
Tier 2 KO 10, that is (3,3) plus 4 parachute down.
Last 4 to next year Tier 1.
Tier 3 KO 11, that is (3,4) plus 4 parachute down.
Last 4 to next year Tier 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 27/05/2019 01:09:19    2187930

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I do feel a lot could be helped by having an early Provincial championship followed by a proper league based season for all.

Tier 1 of 12 teams made up of 4 Provincial champions, 6 best from previous season's tier 1 and finalists from previous season's tier 2.

Tier 2 and 3 of 10 teams each.

Get teams playing proper matches in the good weather.

Teams still get the chance to dream. If a lower level team wins their Provincial championship at the start of the year they move on to compete in the top tier at the expense of the 10th placed team from the following season.

Games are meaningful between teams around the same level.

In hurling there's a choice of how it's run. Maybe 3 tiers of 12,12,11 or 4 tiers of 12,8,8,7 or 10,10,8,7.

Just get teams playing games in the summer against teams around their level.

May, June, July and August are 17 weekends, it's possible to have 11 rounds of inter county games plus 3 club games in each code for players. The fixtures are well scheduled and more games are played at the time of year when they should be played."
On Saturday Antrim were without St Galls and Cargan, the two teams that have dominated Antrim for years. So the arguement that TV coverage helps bring out the best players does not stack up. I would even go as far as to say players dont want to be out against a team that's miles better than you as no amount of TV coverage replaces a closely competitive match. The hurling championship works well and maybe a tweak to the stronger provincial championships would work. E.g. like the leinster hurling championship all teams wouldn't need to come from that province. A Ulster/Connacht and Leinster/Munster championships could have six strongest teams play round Robin, the next six teams (13-18th in country) play in a Joe McD style round Robin with finalists going on to play 3rd place in each of tier 1. The remaining 15 teams are in groups 5,5 and 5 with promotion/relegation. NY is a farce of a match, only a money making jolly.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 326 - 27/05/2019 13:52:36    2188126

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Replying To Brian_Coyote:  "On Saturday Antrim were without St Galls and Cargan, the two teams that have dominated Antrim for years. So the arguement that TV coverage helps bring out the best players does not stack up. I would even go as far as to say players dont want to be out against a team that's miles better than you as no amount of TV coverage replaces a closely competitive match. The hurling championship works well and maybe a tweak to the stronger provincial championships would work. E.g. like the leinster hurling championship all teams wouldn't need to come from that province. A Ulster/Connacht and Leinster/Munster championships could have six strongest teams play round Robin, the next six teams (13-18th in country) play in a Joe McD style round Robin with finalists going on to play 3rd place in each of tier 1. The remaining 15 teams are in groups 5,5 and 5 with promotion/relegation. NY is a farce of a match, only a money making jolly."
100%, the current system is doing nothing for Antrim and I'd say plenty of other teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2602 - 27/05/2019 16:57:39    2188230

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Replying To theweanling:  "100!!!!! why we want to create another league just makes no sense to me!!! we have a tiered competition and it is working really well. the biggest issue is that its continued to be played throughout the spring in the worst weather that Ireland gets in a calendar year. its played off like a mini Sevens competition to get it over and done with so we can get on with dreaming about the white heat of championship which doesn't spark until semi final stage!!!
There's absolutely nothing stopping the GAA to reshuffle the league and championship to allow league games and finals to be played in summer!!! there's also nothing stopping the GAA from marketing the league to allow it reach its full potential. the answer to footballs problems at the moment is literally on front of our noses."
Being from longford, u always dream of sam, and a longford captain climbing the steps. However its unlikely although so was Leicester city!!!!

I was always against a second tier championship, mainly it was because it was usually called some cup, played out of season and given absolutely no media coverage or tv coverage. The fear is, itll be like the joe mcdonagh cup. No coverage whatsoever (and thats from speaking at length to Westmeath and laois supporters)

However i do think a model is actually in place and could work. It works fantastic at club level. Brolly is right when he says u need 3 tiers. U call them senior, intermediate and junior all ireland championships. U have games curtain raisers to senior games and u have an all ireland weekend.
U play ur junior and intermediate all Ireland finals on the sat and senior on the sunday, thus alleviating ur ticket problems.

This works at club level . A junior or intermediate club player would give their right arm to win their perspective championships.

The key is the branding and marketing of the competitions. Its about promotion promotion promotion. Give the competitions the respect and media/tv coverage, that the players deserve. They give up alot at this level, to play for their counties. Very easy to train in winter etc if u have a chance of bringing home sam or a provincial title.

There are obviously other things to consider also, like league placings and provincial championships. But if the genuine will is there to bring on counties and make them competitive, then change can happen.

In this environment i think i would like to see longford wi an all ireland intermediate football final on all ireland Saturday. Not though, if its treated like the joe mcdonagh cup!!

Longfordbaz (Longford) - Posts: 133 - 27/05/2019 21:24:00    2188326

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Just pure coincidence that you're a Longford man but if they do have a two or three tier system one of those cups should be called after the late Eugene McGee.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5416 - 27/05/2019 21:42:52    2188339

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Replying To Longfordbaz:  "Being from longford, u always dream of sam, and a longford captain climbing the steps. However its unlikely although so was Leicester city!!!!

I was always against a second tier championship, mainly it was because it was usually called some cup, played out of season and given absolutely no media coverage or tv coverage. The fear is, itll be like the joe mcdonagh cup. No coverage whatsoever (and thats from speaking at length to Westmeath and laois supporters)

However i do think a model is actually in place and could work. It works fantastic at club level. Brolly is right when he says u need 3 tiers. U call them senior, intermediate and junior all ireland championships. U have games curtain raisers to senior games and u have an all ireland weekend.
U play ur junior and intermediate all Ireland finals on the sat and senior on the sunday, thus alleviating ur ticket problems.

This works at club level . A junior or intermediate club player would give their right arm to win their perspective championships.

The key is the branding and marketing of the competitions. Its about promotion promotion promotion. Give the competitions the respect and media/tv coverage, that the players deserve. They give up alot at this level, to play for their counties. Very easy to train in winter etc if u have a chance of bringing home sam or a provincial title.

There are obviously other things to consider also, like league placings and provincial championships. But if the genuine will is there to bring on counties and make them competitive, then change can happen.

In this environment i think i would like to see longford wi an all ireland intermediate football final on all ireland Saturday. Not though, if its treated like the joe mcdonagh cup!!"
Have you seen my format on other forum topic. I agree with you 100%, and I have the answer in other page to format, if comes down to branding and marketing. That's why three competitions have to fall under same umbrella so tv revenue gets equally shared a la premier league, doesn't matter if your not shown once on Telly.

You don't need to link league and championship, just have league the same, teams will naturally want to stay competing with better teams.

Fairplayer (Louth) - Posts: 7 - 27/05/2019 21:44:10    2188340

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Replying To Fairplayer:  "Have you seen my format on other forum topic. I agree with you 100%, and I have the answer in other page to format, if comes down to branding and marketing. That's why three competitions have to fall under same umbrella so tv revenue gets equally shared a la premier league, doesn't matter if your not shown once on Telly.

You don't need to link league and championship, just have league the same, teams will naturally want to stay competing with better teams."
Fairplayer, just read ur format on the other topic. Excellent suggestions, and at the end of the day its all about the respect, promotion and media/tv coverage it gets. It very hard for supporters like ourselves, and more importantly the players themselves, to buy into another competition, when u see whats gone before and also what theyve done in hurling with the joe mcdonagh cup etc. I have spoken to Westmeath and laois hurling supporters about this and they admit, it gets no coverage.

In 5 yrs time i think we could actually be interested in seeing a longford louth all ireland intermediate football final on all ireland Saturday in croke park. (Longford 2-15 louth 1-17)!!!!!!!

The mad thing about it, if managed properly it would probably be more competitive than the senior competition and more exciting to watch.

Last yr i watched my own county being involved in 2 very competitive and exciting games, against meath and kildare, beating meath and losing to kildare. Never got any real air time, which the players deserved.

Longfordbaz (Longford) - Posts: 133 - 27/05/2019 22:28:54    2188355

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Replying To Fairplayer:  "Have you seen my format on other forum topic. I agree with you 100%, and I have the answer in other page to format, if comes down to branding and marketing. That's why three competitions have to fall under same umbrella so tv revenue gets equally shared a la premier league, doesn't matter if your not shown once on Telly.

You don't need to link league and championship, just have league the same, teams will naturally want to stay competing with better teams."
Premier League TV revenue is split based on the number of games clubs have broadcast during the season. They all get nearly 80 million from the Premier League but the bigger clubs have a bigger cut of TV money, rightly so as they're the teams most viewers want to see.

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Hopefully any second or third tier competition could have some sort of media coverage even it's just a Youtube channel with a few livestreams, vlog analysis, something kids might watch to get them interested in the GAA at home.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5416 - 27/05/2019 22:30:17    2188356

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Premier League TV revenue is split based on the number of games clubs have broadcast during the season. They all get nearly 80 million from the Premier League but the bigger clubs have a bigger cut of TV money, rightly so as they're the teams most viewers want to see.

link

Hopefully any second or third tier competition could have some sort of media coverage even it's just a Youtube channel with a few livestreams, vlog analysis, something kids might watch to get them interested in the GAA at home."
If ur relying on youtube to broadcast it, forget about it.

Longfordbaz (Longford) - Posts: 133 - 28/05/2019 09:12:16    2188401

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Replying To Longfordbaz:  "
Replying To GreenandRed:  "Premier League TV revenue is split based on the number of games clubs have broadcast during the season. They all get nearly 80 million from the Premier League but the bigger clubs have a bigger cut of TV money, rightly so as they're the teams most viewers want to see.

link

Hopefully any second or third tier competition could have some sort of media coverage even it's just a Youtube channel with a few livestreams, vlog analysis, something kids might watch to get them interested in the GAA at home."
If ur relying on youtube to broadcast it, forget about it."
For now Baz they won't. And so-called weaker counties might have no interest at all in getting more media coverage, but having more surely gives a chance of a few more quid from sponsors. There have been a few AIB-sponsored livestreamed GAA games on YouTube. Wooly Parkinson podcasts on YouTube, even though they're shown way too long after the original shows. It's hard enough to get kids to be active and loads of them watch YouTube so it might be a way to get them out there involved in the GAA.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5416 - 28/05/2019 10:21:34    2188422

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