National Forum

2Nd Tier Championship....Catch Yourself On

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I have always been against a 2nd tier competition and the Tommy Murphy
cup was a disaster limiting div 4 teams to play div 4 teams forever.

But one thing iv noticed the last few years is the exodus of players
from div 3 and 4 counties to the states for the summer.

If the players are voting with their feet it may be time to consider
an All Ireland B for div 3 and 4 teams.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 899 - 14/05/2019 09:24:48    2183887

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Replying To The_analyser:  "We already have tiers its called the NFL! the championship is our cup competition and England they have the same called the FA or league cup where AFC Wimbledon can face Liverpool."
100!!!!! why we want to create another league just makes no sense to me!!! we have a tiered competition and it is working really well. the biggest issue is that its continued to be played throughout the spring in the worst weather that Ireland gets in a calendar year. its played off like a mini Sevens competition to get it over and done with so we can get on with dreaming about the white heat of championship which doesn't spark until semi final stage!!!
There's absolutely nothing stopping the GAA to reshuffle the league and championship to allow league games and finals to be played in summer!!! there's also nothing stopping the GAA from marketing the league to allow it reach its full potential. the answer to footballs problems at the moment is literally on front of our noses.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 324 - 14/05/2019 11:04:17    2183921

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I actually feel sorry for the GAA trying to find a solution that is going to keep everyone happy going on the comments here. My main considerations would be:

1) An approach based on inclusion and not exclusion and therefore every county each year gets a crack at Sam. Sport in general is based on aspiring to be the best and in order to be the best you need to be pitting yourselves against them.
2) I'd leave the league as it is as it is very entertaining and competitive and has been for quite a while. Final league standings should feed into deciding upon a counties coefficient/ranking then before the championship.
3) Come championship time I'd have 8 groups of 4 containing your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds based on your league ranking.
4) Each county gets 3 games to start off and top 2 from each group compete for Sam and bottom two enter a second tier championship group structure (again seeded depending if you finish second bottom or bottom in previous round of fixtures) which guarantees them another 3 games before knockout phases. Play the second tier final the same day as the main final and give it proper exposure. If Div 4 teams in the current set up are running Div 2 teams close then they can still cause an upset in the group format and potentially finish higher in the table than teams in a higher league division.

Of course there's issues with the above - will players head off/emigrate etc if they are knocked out of the Sam championship. Potentially yes but that gives opportunities to others to play and develop. I think potentially playing in Croke Park on All Ireland final day should be enough for any lad to want to stay around though.

Scheduling of the above is of course key but I think everyone agrees football needs to be played when the weather is at it's best. (as much as Ireland allows of course!)

TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 71 - 14/05/2019 12:02:09    2183944

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Replying To gotmilk:  "Take a look at the results from the weekend. Division 4 Derry winning with just over 5 minutes left on the clock. Division 3 Offaly leading for a considerable length of time against Meath, Meath falling over the line. Wicklow running Kildare close. Division 4 Limerick (who lost 5 on the bounce) trouncing Tipperary and Clare scrapping over the line against Waterford.

So where are all these hammerings that suggest we need a second-tier championship? Even go back to last weekend and London gave Galway a serious game. The only game from the weekend that could be used to argue for a second tier championship was the Roscommon v Leitrim game."
Fact is already London, Leitrim, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Offaly and Derry are beaten in 1st round as there almost every year. One very minor upset, Tipp who finished bottom of Div 2 and will play in 3 next year lost to Limerick. Brolly is 100% correct there needs to be 3 groups. Also, its a scandal that only Connacht teams have to travel outside the country which is a major setback to their prep for championship. At least Mayo used their trip as part of a training camp this year. The winner of DIV 4 NFL should travel to NY, the winner of DIV 3 to London. NY who have never won a competitive game are after getting hammered by DIV 1 Mayo and wont have another game until they get hammered by DIV 1 Galway in 2020, its a total humbug. As far as the games last weekend being close on the scoreboard goes, nothing can be read into it apart from the fact that teams who are likely to be in the super 8s are trying to do just enough and not show their full hand in May.

martinjoe (Mayo) - Posts: 405 - 14/05/2019 12:13:14    2183946

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Replying To martinjoe:  "Fact is already London, Leitrim, Wicklow, Wexford, Waterford, Offaly and Derry are beaten in 1st round as there almost every year. One very minor upset, Tipp who finished bottom of Div 2 and will play in 3 next year lost to Limerick. Brolly is 100% correct there needs to be 3 groups. Also, its a scandal that only Connacht teams have to travel outside the country which is a major setback to their prep for championship. At least Mayo used their trip as part of a training camp this year. The winner of DIV 4 NFL should travel to NY, the winner of DIV 3 to London. NY who have never won a competitive game are after getting hammered by DIV 1 Mayo and wont have another game until they get hammered by DIV 1 Galway in 2020, its a total humbug. As far as the games last weekend being close on the scoreboard goes, nothing can be read into it apart from the fact that teams who are likely to be in the super 8s are trying to do just enough and not show their full hand in May."
Fact is most of those games were competitive. So you think underdogs aren't allowed to play against a side if they're going to be competitive? They have to win or they aren't allowed to play.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4949 - 15/05/2019 09:43:10    2184229

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The inclusion / exclusion point could be argued either way - e.g. should non-league teams play Champions League material in the English FA Cup ?

Maybe the compromise is - as one of the options tabled by GAA HQ is put - everyone gets a shot at their Prov first - then after one defeat, straight into a graded Tier 1 or Tier 2.

I am firmly in favour of granting Tier 2 Champ or Finalists a place at the top table in the following year - makes Tier 2 title more tangible.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1494 - 15/05/2019 13:30:22    2184290

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Replying To TrueBlue35:  "I actually feel sorry for the GAA trying to find a solution that is going to keep everyone happy going on the comments here. My main considerations would be:

1) An approach based on inclusion and not exclusion and therefore every county each year gets a crack at Sam. Sport in general is based on aspiring to be the best and in order to be the best you need to be pitting yourselves against them.
2) I'd leave the league as it is as it is very entertaining and competitive and has been for quite a while. Final league standings should feed into deciding upon a counties coefficient/ranking then before the championship.
3) Come championship time I'd have 8 groups of 4 containing your 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th seeds based on your league ranking.
4) Each county gets 3 games to start off and top 2 from each group compete for Sam and bottom two enter a second tier championship group structure (again seeded depending if you finish second bottom or bottom in previous round of fixtures) which guarantees them another 3 games before knockout phases. Play the second tier final the same day as the main final and give it proper exposure. If Div 4 teams in the current set up are running Div 2 teams close then they can still cause an upset in the group format and potentially finish higher in the table than teams in a higher league division.

Of course there's issues with the above - will players head off/emigrate etc if they are knocked out of the Sam championship. Potentially yes but that gives opportunities to others to play and develop. I think potentially playing in Croke Park on All Ireland final day should be enough for any lad to want to stay around though.

Scheduling of the above is of course key but I think everyone agrees football needs to be played when the weather is at it's best. (as much as Ireland allows of course!)"
I agree with this. The current issue, as many county players have voiced, is that in order to close the gap so-called weaker counties need more games against better opposition not less. The trouble with this is it takes a longer term (5 years minimum) plan.

But the way the GAA is going is too short-term - let's get more evenly balanced games for a better spectacle and more revenue - at the expense of the long term and bringing all the so-called weaker teams up to the level of the stronger teams. Wouldn't it be great in the future to have 20 teams capable of reaching the semi-finals?

The elephant in the room is the Provincial Championships - until they're gone from the AI-Series nothing will change. The other option to the above is, instead of 8 groups of 4, have 4 groups of 8. All counties would have a minimum of 7 tough championship games with top two of each group going into QFs. With a seeded (based on League) format all teams would have a chance of winning some of the games.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 455 - 24/05/2019 16:04:28    2187143

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