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Although this article is now four years old, for me it is the best proposal I have seen for a re-invigorated football championship. It links the league and championship, keeps alive and probably enhances the provincial championships. Most importantly it provides weaker counties with a realistic competition to win and a clear and achievable pathway for progression.
A big selling point for me is that every league game in every division is now valuable as your league position dictates how kind the draw for the knockout All Ireland series would be to you, and if you have a bad league, the provincial championships are there as ever to win a trophy and progress in the race for Sam Maguire.
I would love to see this implemented. The only gripe I had is Jim suggests that the 'B' All Ireland is played as a curtain raiser to the 'A' All Ireland, that would not be viable due to attendances. Instead have the 'B' All Ireland on the Saturday night in Croke Park under lights, make it a spectacle, in what would be a festival of football with over 120,000 attending Croke Park over Saturday and Sunday. Article is posted below.
I read last week about the intention of the Gaelic Players Association to canvass its players on the structures of the All-Ireland championship. Dessie Farrell was at pains to point out that he felt the provincial championship has run its course. And although I could sympathise with Dessie's viewpoint, the idea set alarm bells off in my mind.
It is obvious to me that the All-Ireland championship needs some kind of shake-up or a new dynamic. But simply dissolving the provincial championships, which have provided the super-structure of the All-Ireland summers for over 100 years, is not the answer to my mind.
In fact, I think it would be a disastrous move for Gaelic football. Once a thing is gone, it is gone. The provincial system is far from perfect. But if you simply do away with it, it means that instead of five trophies on offer, you would be left with just one. And I know that in Donegal, winning the Ulster championship was critical in terms of creating a new space to challenge for the All-Ireland.
It got me thinking about ways in which we could improve the structure of the All-Ireland football championship - and, more importantly, to address the widening gap between the powerful counties and those struggling to stay in touch. The recent mismatch between Dublin and Longford provided further substance for those who would argue that the provincial system has run its course. I don't agree with that.
What if we came up with a structure which linked the National Football League, the provincial championships and the All-Ireland? And in doing so created two distinct All-Ireland competitions for the first 16 and second 16 ranked counties at the end of the process?
Top-tier group
The same would occur in the other bracket, which would obviously need a suitable name and a cup: that would be up to the GAA to decide upon. But how do we arrive at identifying which teams are in each bracket?
This is where the National League comes in. The All-Ireland championship grade one and grade two competitions would be based on league ranking and provincial championship performance.
Let's look at the race for Sam Maguire, in the grade one All-Ireland. The top six teams in Division One and the two teams promoted from Division Two would form the first eight ranked teams. The two teams relegated from Division One would rank number ninth and 10th respectively. The team that finishes third in Division Two is ranked number 11. However, the 12th ranking would be held for the winners of the grade two All-Ireland competition the previous year.
That leaves four places reserved for the provincial championship winners - irrespective of where they finished in the league. So in effect, only the top 11 teams in the league would be guaranteed a seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. If the top-seed teams also won the provincial titles - as will frequently happen - then the top 15 league teams - and the winner of the previous season's second-tier championship - go into the grade one All-Ireland play-offs.
So, to give a scenario: Wicklow earn league promotion from Division Three to Division Two and qualify for the Sam Maguire grade one All-Ireland as the lowest-ranking or 16th-seeded team at the end of the league. They then play the Leinster championship and lose in the first round. But that is okay: their league work is worth something.
Let's say Mayo are the top-seeded team. Then Wicklow will play Mayo - and at home if they win the toss - in a last-16 knockout game with a place in the All-Ireland quarter-finals at stake. Wouldn't that make it worthwhile scrapping to get out of Division Three?
But there is a proviso here. Let's say Kildare have had a miserable league and are demoted to Division Three and therefore are out of the top 16 when the championship starts. They are facing a summer in the second-tier knockout series. In essence, they aren't playing for the Sam Maguire - which is a huge psychological blow for such a strong football county. But they catch fire in the Leinster Championship - and they win it. This guarantees their place as a top seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. They qualify as provincial winners. Wicklow are squeezed out.
The significance of the provincial championship is retained both as a standalone competition and as a means to compete in the All-Ireland.
I think this structure would achieve two things. It would ensure strong teams are no longer just drifting through the league on automatic and that teams from counties with no winning tradition can strive for something more tangible. It would end the whole idea of a strong league performance somehow equating to fool's gold. The reward for a really all-out league contest is there: it is evident in seeding.
Progress
So I feel that rather than abolish the provincial systems, it is time to streamline them. They could be run like tournaments rather than needlessly stretched out over months. The Ulster football championship is terrific. But imagine a weekend when you had a match on a Friday night, a double bill on a Saturday and another match on a Sunday. You could play the semi-finals a fortnight later. The importance of the competition is not diminished and even if a team like Monaghan or Cavan has had a tough league, there is always a chance that they will catch fire in Ulster and go and win the Anglo-Celt.
So: the two All-Ireland play-off brackets are decided upon by league and provincial championship performances.
I think that these should be called the All-Ireland Championship 'Play-offs'. These are in-or-out knockout games, which will bring a cut and thrust feel to the season. I have absolutely no concerns about the play-offs for the Sam Maguire. Sixteen strong teams, with number one playing 16, two playing 15 and so forth - and home or away decided upon a coin toss - would make for a really fascinating competition and would produce unexpected results.
My priority would be in the promotion and elevation of the other competition into something valuable. This can be done. The first thing is that this competition has to be advertised, it has to be put up in lights, and the teams must feel as that their competition is worthwhile. Players want to feel that they are on the big stage. If they are playing in a venue packed with 30,000 people, then the sense of competition will take over. That, to me, is a world away from the reality of a contest like the Tommy Murphy Cup. So games in the second bracket should be guaranteed to be fixed as curtain raisers to the Sam Maguire games. That should follow right through until All-Ireland final day. If we are serious about promoting the game in counties that are struggling, then they should be encouraged to play on the big stage. If that means moving minor games, then so be it. Senior football teams should be given top billing. But there is no reason why there can't be triple-headers featuring minor, grade two and grade one matches from the All-Ireland quarter finals onwards.
The key thing that any player or manager asks himself is this: what are we playing for? Right now, too many teams are playing for nothing tangible. If we abolish the provincial system and create a cold two-tier structure, that becomes even more true. We are effectively punishing struggling teams and instructing them to literally go and play by themselves. They need to have a chance to play against the glamour counties and, if they lose, to still have meaningful games to play in afterwards. This system still gives every team a second chance but to some extent, it removes the safety-net of the qualifying system which always seems to benefit the stronger counties. It means that counties have a clear incentive for progression in the league.
Tradition
And most of all, I would hope, it brings an element of fairness into the All-Ireland tradition. The big day should not be the preserve of the powerful counties. It is often pointed out - and rightly - that the difference in standard between Division Three and Division Four teams can be marginal. If they have the chance to be involved in a knockout All-Ireland competition with an All-Ireland final in Croke Park on the third Sunday of September up for grabs, then wouldn't every county feel as if they are included in the conversation? Isn't that what everyone dreams about growing up?
Antifa (Donegal) - Posts: 143 - 10/05/2019 13:52:36
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I can remember reading this article at the time and thinking it was a great idea. My only concern would be club football but if the provincials were condensed then maybe it could work.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9103 - 10/05/2019 14:33:52
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How about a structure virtually identical to the hurling.
Yes their are 4 provincial championships which would mean 12 go though to the next stage.
Much like Munster in the hurling, Ulster won't accept the death of their own championship (and rightly so in my opinion).
Provincial winners straight through to a quarter final. The remainder play off for the 4 other spots.
Knockout competition creates more excitement and will increase attendances. I'm sure the tv companies would look on it favourably too.
Ej (Wexford) - Posts: 355 - 10/05/2019 15:49:23
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Replying To Antifa: "Although this article is now four years old, for me it is the best proposal I have seen for a re-invigorated football championship. It links the league and championship, keeps alive and probably enhances the provincial championships. Most importantly it provides weaker counties with a realistic competition to win and a clear and achievable pathway for progression.
A big selling point for me is that every league game in every division is now valuable as your league position dictates how kind the draw for the knockout All Ireland series would be to you, and if you have a bad league, the provincial championships are there as ever to win a trophy and progress in the race for Sam Maguire.
I would love to see this implemented. The only gripe I had is Jim suggests that the 'B' All Ireland is played as a curtain raiser to the 'A' All Ireland, that would not be viable due to attendances. Instead have the 'B' All Ireland on the Saturday night in Croke Park under lights, make it a spectacle, in what would be a festival of football with over 120,000 attending Croke Park over Saturday and Sunday. Article is posted below.
I read last week about the intention of the Gaelic Players Association to canvass its players on the structures of the All-Ireland championship. Dessie Farrell was at pains to point out that he felt the provincial championship has run its course. And although I could sympathise with Dessie's viewpoint, the idea set alarm bells off in my mind.
It is obvious to me that the All-Ireland championship needs some kind of shake-up or a new dynamic. But simply dissolving the provincial championships, which have provided the super-structure of the All-Ireland summers for over 100 years, is not the answer to my mind.
In fact, I think it would be a disastrous move for Gaelic football. Once a thing is gone, it is gone. The provincial system is far from perfect. But if you simply do away with it, it means that instead of five trophies on offer, you would be left with just one. And I know that in Donegal, winning the Ulster championship was critical in terms of creating a new space to challenge for the All-Ireland.
It got me thinking about ways in which we could improve the structure of the All-Ireland football championship - and, more importantly, to address the widening gap between the powerful counties and those struggling to stay in touch. The recent mismatch between Dublin and Longford provided further substance for those who would argue that the provincial system has run its course. I don't agree with that.
What if we came up with a structure which linked the National Football League, the provincial championships and the All-Ireland? And in doing so created two distinct All-Ireland competitions for the first 16 and second 16 ranked counties at the end of the process?
Top-tier group
The same would occur in the other bracket, which would obviously need a suitable name and a cup: that would be up to the GAA to decide upon. But how do we arrive at identifying which teams are in each bracket?
This is where the National League comes in. The All-Ireland championship grade one and grade two competitions would be based on league ranking and provincial championship performance.
Let's look at the race for Sam Maguire, in the grade one All-Ireland. The top six teams in Division One and the two teams promoted from Division Two would form the first eight ranked teams. The two teams relegated from Division One would rank number ninth and 10th respectively. The team that finishes third in Division Two is ranked number 11. However, the 12th ranking would be held for the winners of the grade two All-Ireland competition the previous year.
That leaves four places reserved for the provincial championship winners - irrespective of where they finished in the league. So in effect, only the top 11 teams in the league would be guaranteed a seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. If the top-seed teams also won the provincial titles - as will frequently happen - then the top 15 league teams - and the winner of the previous season's second-tier championship - go into the grade one All-Ireland play-offs.
So, to give a scenario: Wicklow earn league promotion from Division Three to Division Two and qualify for the Sam Maguire grade one All-Ireland as the lowest-ranking or 16th-seeded team at the end of the league. They then play the Leinster championship and lose in the first round. But that is okay: their league work is worth something.
Let's say Mayo are the top-seeded team. Then Wicklow will play Mayo - and at home if they win the toss - in a last-16 knockout game with a place in the All-Ireland quarter-finals at stake. Wouldn't that make it worthwhile scrapping to get out of Division Three?
But there is a proviso here. Let's say Kildare have had a miserable league and are demoted to Division Three and therefore are out of the top 16 when the championship starts. They are facing a summer in the second-tier knockout series. In essence, they aren't playing for the Sam Maguire - which is a huge psychological blow for such a strong football county. But they catch fire in the Leinster Championship - and they win it. This guarantees their place as a top seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. They qualify as provincial winners. Wicklow are squeezed out.
The significance of the provincial championship is retained both as a standalone competition and as a means to compete in the All-Ireland.
I think this structure would achieve two things. It would ensure strong teams are no longer just drifting through the league on automatic and that teams from counties with no winning tradition can strive for something more tangible. It would end the whole idea of a strong league performance somehow equating to fool's gold. The reward for a really all-out league contest is there: it is evident in seeding.
Progress
So I feel that rather than abolish the provincial systems, it is time to streamline them. They could be run like tournaments rather than needlessly stretched out over months. The Ulster football championship is terrific. But imagine a weekend when you had a match on a Friday night, a double bill on a Saturday and another match on a Sunday. You could play the semi-finals a fortnight later. The importance of the competition is not diminished and even if a team like Monaghan or Cavan has had a tough league, there is always a chance that they will catch fire in Ulster and go and win the Anglo-Celt.
So: the two All-Ireland play-off brackets are decided upon by league and provincial championship performances.
I think that these should be called the All-Ireland Championship 'Play-offs'. These are in-or-out knockout games, which will bring a cut and thrust feel to the season. I have absolutely no concerns about the play-offs for the Sam Maguire. Sixteen strong teams, with number one playing 16, two playing 15 and so forth - and home or away decided upon a coin toss - would make for a really fascinating competition and would produce unexpected results.
My priority would be in the promotion and elevation of the other competition into something valuable. This can be done. The first thing is that this competition has to be advertised, it has to be put up in lights, and the teams must feel as that their competition is worthwhile. Players want to feel that they are on the big stage. If they are playing in a venue packed with 30,000 people, then the sense of competition will take over. That, to me, is a world away from the reality of a contest like the Tommy Murphy Cup. So games in the second bracket should be guaranteed to be fixed as curtain raisers to the Sam Maguire games. That should follow right through until All-Ireland final day. If we are serious about promoting the game in counties that are struggling, then they should be encouraged to play on the big stage. If that means moving minor games, then so be it. Senior football teams should be given top billing. But there is no reason why there can't be triple-headers featuring minor, grade two and grade one matches from the All-Ireland quarter finals onwards.
The key thing that any player or manager asks himself is this: what are we playing for? Right now, too many teams are playing for nothing tangible. If we abolish the provincial system and create a cold two-tier structure, that becomes even more true. We are effectively punishing struggling teams and instructing them to literally go and play by themselves. They need to have a chance to play against the glamour counties and, if they lose, to still have meaningful games to play in afterwards. This system still gives every team a second chance but to some extent, it removes the safety-net of the qualifying system which always seems to benefit the stronger counties. It means that counties have a clear incentive for progression in the league.
Tradition
And most of all, I would hope, it brings an element of fairness into the All-Ireland tradition. The big day should not be the preserve of the powerful counties. It is often pointed out - and rightly - that the difference in standard between Division Three and Division Four teams can be marginal. If they have the chance to be involved in a knockout All-Ireland competition with an All-Ireland final in Croke Park on the third Sunday of September up for grabs, then wouldn't every county feel as if they are included in the conversation? Isn't that what everyone dreams about growing up?" I never read Jim GuInness's article before. I think it's the best argument yet for how a two tier championship could work. And it solves the problem of what is preventing the implementation of a two tier system, the stumbling block, the Provincial championships. Brilliant. No need to get rid of them but streamline them as Jim says.
We all know despite previous opposition to having a two tier system that it is going to happen and very soon. The retention of the Provincial championships is the icing on the cake. The league will also be ultra competitive. The winners of the B All-Ireland go into the A section automatically the following year. It's a win win for everyone. Some great championship games with some novel pairings would be the outcome with increased attendances. And agree the B Final should be on the Saturday night. Bring it on.
lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 2986 - 10/05/2019 15:53:50
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If Dublin weren't on the hunt for 5 in a row and 4 different teams had won the 4 previous all irelands would people even be thinking about changing the championship structure? Granted this article is 4 years old is all talk of change purely in response to a single teams dominance? Or say mayo win it this year will it paper over the cracks?
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1895 - 10/05/2019 17:14:18
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Replying To Antifa: "Although this article is now four years old, for me it is the best proposal I have seen for a re-invigorated football championship. It links the league and championship, keeps alive and probably enhances the provincial championships. Most importantly it provides weaker counties with a realistic competition to win and a clear and achievable pathway for progression.
A big selling point for me is that every league game in every division is now valuable as your league position dictates how kind the draw for the knockout All Ireland series would be to you, and if you have a bad league, the provincial championships are there as ever to win a trophy and progress in the race for Sam Maguire.
I would love to see this implemented. The only gripe I had is Jim suggests that the 'B' All Ireland is played as a curtain raiser to the 'A' All Ireland, that would not be viable due to attendances. Instead have the 'B' All Ireland on the Saturday night in Croke Park under lights, make it a spectacle, in what would be a festival of football with over 120,000 attending Croke Park over Saturday and Sunday. Article is posted below.
I read last week about the intention of the Gaelic Players Association to canvass its players on the structures of the All-Ireland championship. Dessie Farrell was at pains to point out that he felt the provincial championship has run its course. And although I could sympathise with Dessie's viewpoint, the idea set alarm bells off in my mind.
It is obvious to me that the All-Ireland championship needs some kind of shake-up or a new dynamic. But simply dissolving the provincial championships, which have provided the super-structure of the All-Ireland summers for over 100 years, is not the answer to my mind.
In fact, I think it would be a disastrous move for Gaelic football. Once a thing is gone, it is gone. The provincial system is far from perfect. But if you simply do away with it, it means that instead of five trophies on offer, you would be left with just one. And I know that in Donegal, winning the Ulster championship was critical in terms of creating a new space to challenge for the All-Ireland.
It got me thinking about ways in which we could improve the structure of the All-Ireland football championship - and, more importantly, to address the widening gap between the powerful counties and those struggling to stay in touch. The recent mismatch between Dublin and Longford provided further substance for those who would argue that the provincial system has run its course. I don't agree with that.
What if we came up with a structure which linked the National Football League, the provincial championships and the All-Ireland? And in doing so created two distinct All-Ireland competitions for the first 16 and second 16 ranked counties at the end of the process?
Top-tier group
The same would occur in the other bracket, which would obviously need a suitable name and a cup: that would be up to the GAA to decide upon. But how do we arrive at identifying which teams are in each bracket?
This is where the National League comes in. The All-Ireland championship grade one and grade two competitions would be based on league ranking and provincial championship performance.
Let's look at the race for Sam Maguire, in the grade one All-Ireland. The top six teams in Division One and the two teams promoted from Division Two would form the first eight ranked teams. The two teams relegated from Division One would rank number ninth and 10th respectively. The team that finishes third in Division Two is ranked number 11. However, the 12th ranking would be held for the winners of the grade two All-Ireland competition the previous year.
That leaves four places reserved for the provincial championship winners - irrespective of where they finished in the league. So in effect, only the top 11 teams in the league would be guaranteed a seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. If the top-seed teams also won the provincial titles - as will frequently happen - then the top 15 league teams - and the winner of the previous season's second-tier championship - go into the grade one All-Ireland play-offs.
So, to give a scenario: Wicklow earn league promotion from Division Three to Division Two and qualify for the Sam Maguire grade one All-Ireland as the lowest-ranking or 16th-seeded team at the end of the league. They then play the Leinster championship and lose in the first round. But that is okay: their league work is worth something.
Let's say Mayo are the top-seeded team. Then Wicklow will play Mayo - and at home if they win the toss - in a last-16 knockout game with a place in the All-Ireland quarter-finals at stake. Wouldn't that make it worthwhile scrapping to get out of Division Three?
But there is a proviso here. Let's say Kildare have had a miserable league and are demoted to Division Three and therefore are out of the top 16 when the championship starts. They are facing a summer in the second-tier knockout series. In essence, they aren't playing for the Sam Maguire - which is a huge psychological blow for such a strong football county. But they catch fire in the Leinster Championship - and they win it. This guarantees their place as a top seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. They qualify as provincial winners. Wicklow are squeezed out.
The significance of the provincial championship is retained both as a standalone competition and as a means to compete in the All-Ireland.
I think this structure would achieve two things. It would ensure strong teams are no longer just drifting through the league on automatic and that teams from counties with no winning tradition can strive for something more tangible. It would end the whole idea of a strong league performance somehow equating to fool's gold. The reward for a really all-out league contest is there: it is evident in seeding.
Progress
So I feel that rather than abolish the provincial systems, it is time to streamline them. They could be run like tournaments rather than needlessly stretched out over months. The Ulster football championship is terrific. But imagine a weekend when you had a match on a Friday night, a double bill on a Saturday and another match on a Sunday. You could play the semi-finals a fortnight later. The importance of the competition is not diminished and even if a team like Monaghan or Cavan has had a tough league, there is always a chance that they will catch fire in Ulster and go and win the Anglo-Celt.
So: the two All-Ireland play-off brackets are decided upon by league and provincial championship performances.
I think that these should be called the All-Ireland Championship 'Play-offs'. These are in-or-out knockout games, which will bring a cut and thrust feel to the season. I have absolutely no concerns about the play-offs for the Sam Maguire. Sixteen strong teams, with number one playing 16, two playing 15 and so forth - and home or away decided upon a coin toss - would make for a really fascinating competition and would produce unexpected results.
My priority would be in the promotion and elevation of the other competition into something valuable. This can be done. The first thing is that this competition has to be advertised, it has to be put up in lights, and the teams must feel as that their competition is worthwhile. Players want to feel that they are on the big stage. If they are playing in a venue packed with 30,000 people, then the sense of competition will take over. That, to me, is a world away from the reality of a contest like the Tommy Murphy Cup. So games in the second bracket should be guaranteed to be fixed as curtain raisers to the Sam Maguire games. That should follow right through until All-Ireland final day. If we are serious about promoting the game in counties that are struggling, then they should be encouraged to play on the big stage. If that means moving minor games, then so be it. Senior football teams should be given top billing. But there is no reason why there can't be triple-headers featuring minor, grade two and grade one matches from the All-Ireland quarter finals onwards.
The key thing that any player or manager asks himself is this: what are we playing for? Right now, too many teams are playing for nothing tangible. If we abolish the provincial system and create a cold two-tier structure, that becomes even more true. We are effectively punishing struggling teams and instructing them to literally go and play by themselves. They need to have a chance to play against the glamour counties and, if they lose, to still have meaningful games to play in afterwards. This system still gives every team a second chance but to some extent, it removes the safety-net of the qualifying system which always seems to benefit the stronger counties. It means that counties have a clear incentive for progression in the league.
Tradition
And most of all, I would hope, it brings an element of fairness into the All-Ireland tradition. The big day should not be the preserve of the powerful counties. It is often pointed out - and rightly - that the difference in standard between Division Three and Division Four teams can be marginal. If they have the chance to be involved in a knockout All-Ireland competition with an All-Ireland final in Croke Park on the third Sunday of September up for grabs, then wouldn't every county feel as if they are included in the conversation? Isn't that what everyone dreams about growing up?" Very interesting. It ticks a number of boxes - an enhanced status for the league, which I think is good, while maintaining the relevance of the provincial championships. Plus, we get to see if a tiered format works.
offyertrolley (Leitrim) - Posts: 141 - 10/05/2019 17:28:21
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Yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn
streaker (Galway) - Posts: 497 - 10/05/2019 18:06:34
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It is really good.
I think a big thing though is that the league should be moved to April, May, June, July.
17 weeks. 11 potential rounds (7 league, max 4 Provincial games). 3 club weekends per code set aside during the league and provincial season.
Knockout championship starts in August. It'd take 6 weeks only to play off.
Club then until the end of the year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 10/05/2019 23:35:29
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Replying To streaker: "Yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn" So streaker, you're happy with the championship as it is then?
lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 2986 - 10/05/2019 23:42:59
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Replying To lilywhite1: "So streaker, you're happy with the championship as it is then?" Probably not, but I can understand streaker's reaction. Hardly a month goes by that there isnt a thread on here discussing proposals about how to reform the football championship. At the moment there are 2 threads (the McStay one as well). By the time the thread finishes there will be 30 or 40 other proposals put forward and they will all have been shot down in the course of the discussion. Talk of reform of the football championship has been going on for years and it all just seems to go around in circles. For those of us for whom football is the 2nd sport (and maybe for some for whom it's the first sport) it all seems quite tedious. Of course we dont have to read the threads if we are finding them that way...and thats generally what I do...just dip into them now and again to see if there's any consensus emerging from the chaos. Whether it's McGuinness or McStay or someone else's proposal, just wish the football fraternity would get their act together and rally around some proposal and implement it.
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1901 - 11/05/2019 11:40:13
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This is virtually the same proposal that Seán Kelly put forward long before Jim did and it's a very solid and well thought out structure.
I think moving the league as well is a good idea. Personally I would favour a system where the league and championship overlap and everybody knows when their season finishes give or take a week or two.
Whatever happens I think we will have a very different football champion in a decades time. The dogs on the street know the current format is outdated and change will come. The pity is that it won't be the best proposal that wins out but the one that can get the most backing from all the vested interests.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 11/05/2019 12:16:42
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Replying To streaker: "Yaaaaawwwwwnnnnn" I agree that these type of threads have been done to death. But did you actually read the proposal? Whether it was McGuiness or Sean Kelly I think it pretty much covers everything. Those complaining about a B competition have the league and provincials to prove they're good enough for the A. Those competing in the A competition are there on merit - the very essence of what sport is about,
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9103 - 11/05/2019 13:23:52
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its virtually a done deal that a 2 tier system is coming soon. The Tier 2 final should be a curtain raiser for the big one.
The GAA will also preserve the provincial system for now. League and championship must be connected, there is no other solution. Beaten division 3 and 4 counties in their province go to Tier 2, the other beaten counties go to qualifiers for potential Super 8. Division 3 and 4 will become more competitive this way.
suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1667 - 11/05/2019 13:44:57
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I would not be against it but no matter how you change the format , negative football which he aspired to, does nothing for me. Unfortunately most of our team managers copied him and now we have a situation where that system is being dis-regarded (a lot of slow learners managing teams). It not the formats, or the rules that need changing, but the mentality of managers.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 11/05/2019 15:28:37
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For an exciting AI SFC - SUPER EIGHTeen -
1) Prior Year AI Tier 2 Finalists join Top 2 NFL divisions (incl prior NFL Div 3 Top 2) in the Super 18 - add prior Div 2 7th and 8th, if needed to complete 18.
2) 'Super 18' has 6 groups of 3 - all 3 in each group from a different Prov - most likely possible - all play 2 group games.
3) Play Prov KO in parallel.
4) In honor of Eugene McGee - Provs start with 4x8 - the most NW 1 of Lein's NFL worst 3 join the 9th-ranked Uls NFL team in Conn QFs - other worst Lein 2 to Muns QFs.
5) Top 2 in each of 6 Super 18 groups join 4 Prov Champs in the AI SFC KO Rd of 16 - teams 'advancing twice' get a bye to the AI QFs.
6) Tier 2 - the 'Other 14' - form 4 groups of 3 and 1 'two-legged pair' (5 Intra-Prov groups, if possible) - all play 2 group games - 5 group winners and 3 best 2nds from 4x3 to Tier 2 QFs - 2 Finalists earn Super 18 berths in the following year.
Note - compared to now - each team plays only two additional/exciting group games that brings the workload in line with Hurling groups - while keeping the Prov SFC structure. Tier 2 teams are incentivised to get a 'second chance at Sam' by getting promoted to the Super 18 in the following year.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 11/05/2019 17:40:17
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Another idea -
Play initial Prov KO rds to determine 8 Prov SFs.
Draw one SF from each of two neighbouring Provs to each of '4 groups of 4' - UL (Uls/Lein); LM; MC; and CU - for 3-game round robins per team.
Draw a Prov QF loser, one Lein/one Uls to each of weaker '4 pools of 4' - and complete each pool with a pair from the remaining 8.
Prov SFs are played as the 2nd of 3 group matches - winners advancing to Prov Finals.
Best 8 records of group 16 (not necessarily each group top 2 to mitigate dead rubber risk, and seeded 1 to 8) hosts a team from the 'Best 8 records of pool 16' (seeded 9 to 16) in AI KO Rd 1.
Rd 1 has 1 hosts 16, 2 hosts 15 etc to 8 hosts 9.
8 Rd 1 winners join 4 Prov Champs in 'AI KO Rd 2' - teams advancing twice with best group record (then those once), get byes to AI QFs instead, as necessary.
Note - teams play only 2 extra group games as the Prov SFs double up - or 3 pool games, whdn not playing a SF.
This freshens up the AI SFC and teams mostly play in their 'own tier'.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 11/05/2019 19:37:49
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I like the McGuinness proposal but unless I'm mistaken isn't there one major flaw and that is that the knockout all Ireland championships both A and B can't start until after the provincial championships are all finished. In Leinster which requires four rounds that surely at least 6 probably 8 weeks to run it off. That means long delays between first round defeat and first game in all Ireland. Division 3 and 4 players who know they're in the B won't hang around for it or if they do it'll be hard to motivate them to train for it.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 12/05/2019 08:27:38
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "Probably not, but I can understand streaker's reaction. Hardly a month goes by that there isnt a thread on here discussing proposals about how to reform the football championship. At the moment there are 2 threads (the McStay one as well). By the time the thread finishes there will be 30 or 40 other proposals put forward and they will all have been shot down in the course of the discussion. Talk of reform of the football championship has been going on for years and it all just seems to go around in circles. For those of us for whom football is the 2nd sport (and maybe for some for whom it's the first sport) it all seems quite tedious. Of course we dont have to read the threads if we are finding them that way...and thats generally what I do...just dip into them now and again to see if there's any consensus emerging from the chaos. Whether it's McGuinness or McStay or someone else's proposal, just wish the football fraternity would get their act together and rally around some proposal and implement it." I understand your point.
I contribute a lot to these threads and I find them interesting.
I also find them useful. I am actually going to submit something to my county board to be considered as a format.
I also think the hurling championship shows that it's important to get these things right.
Despite last year being a very successful season for hurling I really believe they made a mistake in their competition. It was rushed and there are some huge problems that have been built into it.
1 Munster is way stronger than Leinster
2 What do you do about Kerry, the rule where they have to play off with the 5th placed team in Munster is not fair to them. If you put them into Leinster you'd have a situation where you've a Leinster championship of 3 traditional Leinster counties, Galway and Kerry. The Leinster championship is the flagship event of the Leinster council whose remit is to promote Gaelic games in the 12 counties of Leinster yet the likes of Westmeath, Meath, Carlow, Offaly, Laois all doing great work to promote hurling will find themselves not in a Leinster championship but Kerry or Antrim would be. That situation which is very plausible it's going to cause real tension and rightly so.
So yeah there was a great hurling championship last season but I mean they rushed it and there's going to be problems for this system in the near future.
I'd prefer it if football got it close to being right and then had a set structure that could work for the next 25-40 years.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 12/05/2019 11:42:04
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Replying To Onion Breath: "I like the McGuinness proposal but unless I'm mistaken isn't there one major flaw and that is that the knockout all Ireland championships both A and B can't start until after the provincial championships are all finished. In Leinster which requires four rounds that surely at least 6 probably 8 weeks to run it off. That means long delays between first round defeat and first game in all Ireland. Division 3 and 4 players who know they're in the B won't hang around for it or if they do it'll be hard to motivate them to train for it." Last season also shows a flaw in the competition.
You'd Laois who'd won their first 10 matches of the season, including beating Kildare and they would've only been beaten by Dublin and yet they'd be moved into second tier championship.
Laois only won division 4 but under this system they could have won div 3 and not been guaranteed a spot in the tier 1 championship if say a Sligo won Connacht and say Down or Fermanagh won Ulster.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 12/05/2019 12:14:52
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Idea for new All Ireland series
Group stages in each province which guarantee one home and one away game to each county. Anyone that loses out in provincial SF goes into B championship (2 Groups of 4 teams, SF, Final). A Championship is made up provincial finalists (2 groups of 4 teams. Winners of province play at home 1st in group game. One home, one away and one neutral game for each team). C Championship is made up of 4 groups of remaining teams with top 4 reaching SF and Final).
Example of how it would look would be;
Ulster
Group 1: Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan
Group 2: Tyrone, Down, Armagh
Group 3: Monaghan, Antrim, Derry
Each team play in the group plays each other (one home and one away game) in total. Runs over 3 weeks in a row. Top 3 into SF's. 2nd place teams (Group 1 and Group 2 play eachother (week 4), winners of that play 2nd place team from group 3 (week 5), SF's (week 6), Final (week 7).
This reward the top team with a rest in the middle.
Finalists in A Championship - 2 teams
Losing Semi Finalists into B Championship - 2 teams
Bottom teams in groups (3 teams) and 2 losing 2nd place teams (2 teams) - 5 teams into C Champiosnhip
Munster
Group 1: Kerry, Tipperary, Waterford
Group 2: Cork, Clare, Limerick
Each team play each other in their group (1 home/1 away game each).
Top 2 in each group into SF then final.
Could take 5 weeks in total if ran week on week.
Finalists in A Championship - 2 teams
Losing Semi Finalists into B Championship - 2 teams
Bottom Group teams into C Championship - 2 teams
Connacht
Group 1: Mayo, Leitrim, Rosscommon
Group 2: Sligo, Galway, London
Each team play one home/away as per Ulster/Munster.
Top 2 into SF's and then final.
Finalists in A Championship - 2 teams
Losing Semi Finalists into B Championship - 2 teams
Bottom Group teams into C Championship - 2 teams
New York should be put straight into C Championship (open draw)
Leinster
Group 1: Dublin, Longford, Offaly
Group 2: Meath, Carlow, Louth
Group 3: Kildare, Laois, Westmeath
Group 4: Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow
Each team plays each other (one home/away) - play over 3 weekends in a row. Top 2 teams in each group into QF's and then SF and then final. Losing QF's into C Championship alongside 3rd place teams. (8 teams).
Finalists in A Championship - 2 teams
Losing Semi Finalists into B Championship - 2 teams
C Championship - Losing QF's (4 teams) and 3rd place teams in group (4 teams) - 8 teams
All group stages are open draw each year.
All QF and SF draws are done after group stage each year.
Remainder of Championship would / could then be done in a number of ways
A Championship ( 8 teams - could follow Super 8 format of 2 group of 4 teams. If this was preferred option I would reward provincial winners with home game 1st. Would then have provincial runner up playing at home in round 2 games and then all neutral games for round 3 games). SF and then final.
I personally would prefer straight knock out games for last 8 teams as adds excitement and do or die element to it. Would be open draw with possibility of provincial winners playing each other in QF's.
B Championship - 8 provincial losing SF's. Group stages, 4 in each group. 1 home/away/neutral game. SF and Final.
C Championship - Ulster (5 teams), Connacht (3 teams), Munster (2 teams), and Leinster (8 teams) = 18 teams
4 groups - 2 groups of 4 teams (1 home/away/1 neutral) and 2 groups of 5 teams (each team plays 2 home/2away).
Top team in each group gets to SF and then final.
This format would guarantee all teams at least 1 home and 1 away game against provincial opposition and 3 games against teams at their level. Also gives everyone an equal chance of reaching the A championship. All group stages done in open draw form each year (no seeding).
Key points of this idea would be;
All provincial finals taking place on the same day.
Provincial games meaning more due to it deciding your placement in A/B/C championship
Timescale
Provinces - 7 weeks in total. Start in April finish in May (week 3)
week off (may week 4)
Week 9 -12 (Group stage games) - June
week off (July week 1)
week 13 SF (July week 2)
week off (July week 3)
week 14 (July week 4)
KHL (Donegal) - Posts: 99 - 12/05/2019 13:41:53
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