National Forum

The Last 5 Years In Football

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Replying To Joxer:  "Cork have won 5 Munster titles in 2 decades in a province where they have only one other county competing. They've appeared in 4 AI finals in the last 25 years winning 1 title. For the second city they're poor enough but like I said they're a hurling county first."
consider the amount of all ireland semis against kerry though..in the noughties they pretty much beat everyone else bar kerry in croker.

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 22/03/2019 12:31:43    2174347

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Replying To Joxer:  "Cork have won 5 Munster titles in 2 decades in a province where they have only one other county competing. They've appeared in 4 AI finals in the last 25 years winning 1 title. For the second city they're poor enough but like I said they're a hurling county first."
competing against one of the best gaa teams ever during that period..they were a very good side for a decent period there

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 22/03/2019 12:33:09    2174348

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Didn't cork win the all ire in 2010?? That's just 9 years not even yet. Down played them in the final, Meath were in all ire semis: quarters 4 /5 times upto 10 ."
somewhat false semi finalists i would argue in 2009 anyway with meath...cork were pretty much losing to kerry and beating most other sides

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 22/03/2019 12:34:14    2174350

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I've been at every All Ireland senior football football final since 1972 . The most competitive decade I remember is the nineties . There were eight different winners . The biggest winning margin in any final was four points . In 1990 Cork defended the title they won in 1989. Throughout the nineties no team successfully defended the title. This is the only full decade in the history of the football championship where this has happened."
great decade alright

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 22/03/2019 12:34:58    2174351

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Replying To Joxer:  "Today's players are elite athletes. Players in the 70s and 80s were having pints in the run up to games and smoking in the dressing room at half time. They wouldn't live with the sheer athleticism of today's players. While it may be great to fantasize about Jacko dislodging Fenton from a Dublin team and Spillane shifting out Dermot Connolly or Ciaran Kilkenny, today's players are on a different level, all two footed, hitting points from both sides, foot passing with either foot over 30/40 yards. I remember Michael O'H nearly having a heart attack when Mikey Sheehy flicked a ball up on the run in the 70s as though he had performed a miracle, now every player does it. Teams are training almost all year round 5/6 nights a week, playing club, college, IC football almost all year. The skills are second nature to them and the fitness is unreal. Lift up the Bomber or Jimmy K's jersey in the day and you saw a keg of beer. Lift up Ciaran Kilkennys or James O'Donoghue's and you see a 6 pack. Different level."
yes but players can only do what goes on in their own era..given modern training they should be able to match them/no reason not to..its like saying maradona would be no good in modern football when he obviously would be

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 22/03/2019 12:36:57    2174353

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Replying To JDF:  "How good are/were this Mayo team too, many say the best never to win an All Ireland which is certainly true of the last 30 years but how do they compare to the teams who've won All Irelands the last 30 years?

Many say their unlucky to be in the same era as the Dubs but I don't necessarily agree with that. Talent wise I look back at the teams who've won All Irelands the last 30 years and which teams Mayo were better than and I don't see too many. Kerry in 2014 by Kerry standards weren't the greatest Kerry team we've seen but Mayo failed to beat them when the All Ireland would have been there for the taking.

This Mayo team have been brilliant and have fantastic character to keep coming back but one of the reasons they were able to do so was the lack of quality opposition."
That Mayo team should have beaten Dublin in 2 AI finals. That's how good they were.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 22/03/2019 13:29:26    2174369

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Replying To alano12:  "yes but players can only do what goes on in their own era..given modern training they should be able to match them/no reason not to..its like saying maradona would be no good in modern football when he obviously would be"
Exactly and that's what I said in my first post. It's a different question, if you subjected the teams of the 70s/80s to the training, dietary and commitment levels of the teams today would they be as good? Who knows. If you transplanted them into the championship this year in an as-is state IMO they woukdn't live with the Dublins of this workd.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 22/03/2019 14:09:33    2174377

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Replying To Joxer:  "That Mayo team should have beaten Dublin in 2 AI finals. That's how good they were."
But they didn't because they weren't good enough.

Didn't have enough forwards to kick the scores when they were on top and dominating or any quality on the bench to change the direction of the match.

JDF (Galway) - Posts: 322 - 22/03/2019 15:15:49    2174386

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I've been at every All Ireland senior football football final since 1972 . The most competitive decade I remember is the nineties . There were eight different winners . The biggest winning margin in any final was four points . In 1990 Cork defended the title they won in 1989. Throughout the nineties no team successfully defended the title. This is the only full decade in the history of the football championship where this has happened."
Jaysus Greengrass thats very impressive there nearly fifty years in a row going to All Ireland finals. The big one for the Wee County fokes is of course the magical year of 1957 when the smallest county in Ireland beat the biggest county on a score line of 1-09 to 1-07. The great Dermot O Brien is the only Wee County captain to lift Sam. What was your favourite All Ireland final that you attended?

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 22/03/2019 15:16:14    2174387

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Replying To JDF:  "But they didn't because they weren't good enough.

Didn't have enough forwards to kick the scores when they were on top and dominating or any quality on the bench to change the direction of the match."
Exactly, Mayo should have bate us twice in 2014 and we were brutal for the last 8-10 years

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 22/03/2019 17:25:40    2174409

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Replying To JDF:  "How good are/were this Mayo team too, many say the best never to win an All Ireland which is certainly true of the last 30 years but how do they compare to the teams who've won All Irelands the last 30 years?

Many say their unlucky to be in the same era as the Dubs but I don't necessarily agree with that. Talent wise I look back at the teams who've won All Irelands the last 30 years and which teams Mayo were better than and I don't see too many. Kerry in 2014 by Kerry standards weren't the greatest Kerry team we've seen but Mayo failed to beat them when the All Ireland would have been there for the taking.

This Mayo team have been brilliant and have fantastic character to keep coming back but one of the reasons they were able to do so was the lack of quality opposition."
JDF, I know stats aren't everything, but in the 2017 final Mayo had an attack to scoring conversion rate of just over 60% and lost by a point to a Dublin side who hit 65%. No winner or loser in the 30 years prior to that final had managed 60% and when you take into account that Dublin and Mayo were both regarded as defensively strong, it has to say something about their relative quality. Would either of them have been as good in an era when the game was slower and players didn't need to be as athletic... it's hard to know. A lot of great players from the past even if trained to modern standards wouldn't make their county team now, because that extra step up in pace and physicality isn't something which every man or woman is capable of adapting to. We all know the standout club players who found county standard just a bit too quick and hard for them, and skill alone isn't enough anymore... players need to be able to bring a lot more if they want to make it at intercounty level.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 22/03/2019 18:48:27    2174419

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Replying To Pericles:  "JDF, I know stats aren't everything, but in the 2017 final Mayo had an attack to scoring conversion rate of just over 60% and lost by a point to a Dublin side who hit 65%. No winner or loser in the 30 years prior to that final had managed 60% and when you take into account that Dublin and Mayo were both regarded as defensively strong, it has to say something about their relative quality. Would either of them have been as good in an era when the game was slower and players didn't need to be as athletic... it's hard to know. A lot of great players from the past even if trained to modern standards wouldn't make their county team now, because that extra step up in pace and physicality isn't something which every man or woman is capable of adapting to. We all know the standout club players who found county standard just a bit too quick and hard for them, and skill alone isn't enough anymore... players need to be able to bring a lot more if they want to make it at intercounty level."
Dubs like city over the pond.
The raised the bar and taken it to a different level.

Vishred (Mayo) - Posts: 303 - 22/03/2019 18:55:22    2174422

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Replying To JDF:  "But they didn't because they weren't good enough.

Didn't have enough forwards to kick the scores when they were on top and dominating or any quality on the bench to change the direction of the match."
Dublin has a better bench than us...that's why we haven't beaten them. Dublin bench has contributed 0-9 in the finals while ours had 0-1...there is your difference in one point losses....

Diarmuid Connolly swing it in their favout in 2017...if he had Connolly then we win that game...that's just my opinion.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11227 - 22/03/2019 21:36:41    2174447

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I suppose it's only human nature for some people to make a case against teams or individuals who are perhaps being seen as better than anyone else. If they accept it, it downgrades their favourites.
Not everyone loved Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Ronaldo ,Real Madrid, Messi ,Barcelona, Pele , Brazil, Man Utd ,Stephen Hendry,Steve Davis , Maradonna,Ayrton Senna,Kerry , Kilkenny or Dublin in their day. There's always a case for your individual or team buts that's always been the way.
The only real barometer is the record books and that's what they'll be looking at down the road.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 23/03/2019 09:27:51    2174482

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Dublin has a better bench than us...that's why we haven't beaten them. Dublin bench has contributed 0-9 in the finals while ours had 0-1...there is your difference in one point losses....

Diarmuid Connolly swing it in their favout in 2017...if he had Connolly then we win that game...that's just my opinion."
Agreed

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 23/03/2019 15:12:57    2174522

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Replying To Joxer:  "Exactly and that's what I said in my first post. It's a different question, if you subjected the teams of the 70s/80s to the training, dietary and commitment levels of the teams today would they be as good? Who knows. If you transplanted them into the championship this year in an as-is state IMO they woukdn't live with the Dublins of this workd."
you cant transplant a team into the current era..they wouldnt even beat a div 3 team team..but if you have subjected them to the training considering their ability they would most likely adapt pretty comfortably same as most teams have.

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 03:35:28    2174612

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Replying To Joxer:  "That Mayo team should have beaten Dublin in 2 AI finals. That's how good they were."
mayo pretty limited forward line most of those years in fairness bar 2017 with andy moran playing his best stuff with a very limited panel compared to us..incredible spine outside of the forward line though yes with likes of keegan, higgins etc

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 24/03/2019 03:37:34    2174613

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Replying To alano12:  "you cant transplant a team into the current era..they wouldnt even beat a div 3 team team..but if you have subjected them to the training considering their ability they would most likely adapt pretty comfortably same as most teams have."
For me, the nature of the demands have changed so much that the idea that teams from the past could still thrive given modern training, I just don't agree with. Taking it in reverse, I know there are lads on our panel today who wouldn't have been in it 20 years ago (not individually skilful enough), but they have what it takes to be very effective where strength, speed and stamina are necessary to make them a strong link in the team chain. There are plenty of examples of good players, particularly forwards, who found the way the game was developing didn't suit them. For example our own Conor Mortimer. When he arrived on the scene as young player he was a very pleasant surprise for me as a supporter... very skilful and accurate, and someone who was always worth his place except for one area - he had no physicality or aggression. This enabled him to be bullied out of it by Tom O'Sullivan in the finals of 04 and 06, when basically Tom just held onto his jersey for the whole game (he got a yellow 10 mins before the end of one of the games, when one of the umpires finally got tired of seeing it and drew the referees attention). But what really did for Conor was when it started to be expected that forwards should track and tackle just the same as any player in the backs. That didn't compute with his idea of a forward and there are other lads still in the game for whom these extra duties simply don't fit their capabilities - I think James O'Donoghue is a prime example. But there are even more obvious examples from the past... while most of the Tyrone forwards from the noughties team imo would still hack it today, a player like Kerry's Maurice Fitz probably would not for the same reasons Conor Mortimer couldn't (can you imagine him chasing Philly Mc or Keith Higgins all over Croker?).

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 24/03/2019 11:54:31    2174668

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Replying To Pericles:  "For me, the nature of the demands have changed so much that the idea that teams from the past could still thrive given modern training, I just don't agree with. Taking it in reverse, I know there are lads on our panel today who wouldn't have been in it 20 years ago (not individually skilful enough), but they have what it takes to be very effective where strength, speed and stamina are necessary to make them a strong link in the team chain. There are plenty of examples of good players, particularly forwards, who found the way the game was developing didn't suit them. For example our own Conor Mortimer. When he arrived on the scene as young player he was a very pleasant surprise for me as a supporter... very skilful and accurate, and someone who was always worth his place except for one area - he had no physicality or aggression. This enabled him to be bullied out of it by Tom O'Sullivan in the finals of 04 and 06, when basically Tom just held onto his jersey for the whole game (he got a yellow 10 mins before the end of one of the games, when one of the umpires finally got tired of seeing it and drew the referees attention). But what really did for Conor was when it started to be expected that forwards should track and tackle just the same as any player in the backs. That didn't compute with his idea of a forward and there are other lads still in the game for whom these extra duties simply don't fit their capabilities - I think James O'Donoghue is a prime example. But there are even more obvious examples from the past... while most of the Tyrone forwards from the noughties team imo would still hack it today, a player like Kerry's Maurice Fitz probably would not for the same reasons Conor Mortimer couldn't (can you imagine him chasing Philly Mc or Keith Higgins all over Croker?)."
While Ken and Trevor would run through walls for Mayo, Conor played for himself first. Nowhere near as good a player as Damien Comer but Trevor was one of those kind of all action physical players that gets the crowd up and roaring. For me Conor had more footballing skills than his brothers and was a very good freetaker, but was more interested in the limelight than working harder on his game and in his game. The structure of championship, shorter season, back door, Super 8, and gap after the league has surely changed conditioning programs a bit too as teams endeavour to peak at the right time.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7337 - 24/03/2019 12:46:51    2174676

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I wouldn't accept that players are less skillful than previous generations, if anything I think they're better. I go back to the seventies and the basic requirments of a back was to be tough and hoof the ball up the field. There's much less space now to show case skills and sadly the naturally skillful player who isn't willing to work gets blown out of the water.

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 24/03/2019 14:03:26    2174687

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