National Forum

Rules - Here We Go Again !

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Replying To yew_tree:  "Tyrone 0-2 Fermanagh 0-2 was a half time score tonight...great value for the patrons there."
It's only 9 months since Fermanagh last scored only 2 points in a half of football, and conceded only 2 points in a half of football. Your own county club champions led 0-3 to 0-1 at half time in a game 3 months ago, winning the game 6 points to 5 with 1 of the 6 points coming from play. There were 3 more goals and 6 more scores in the game between Leitrim and Mayo under the new rules than under the old rules last year. If we are to judge all new rules on 1 game between Fermanagh and Tyrone in January I don't think football will make much progress.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2252 - 11/01/2019 11:23:04    2156560

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "You sound like the auld lad after a few pints longing for the good old days. Foootball is a hell of a lot better than it was 30 years ago, all games evolve with time. And people focus on a few bad games and ignore the brilliant ones."
You're absolutely spot on there

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 18770 - 11/01/2019 11:50:01    2156570

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Replying To Sweetspot:  "Tyrone vs Fermanagh 0-2 a piece at half time.. call it a day lads, case dismissed, rules are rubbish"
2nd half of McKenna Cup semi final 2018, Fermanagh 0-1 Tyrone 0-2. That's a 33% increase in scoring under the new rules! The final score last year was Fermanagh 0-4 Tyrone 0-8. Tyrone are taking to these new rules like a duck to water!

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2252 - 11/01/2019 12:13:51    2156576

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People who think that intercounty players don't have the ability or skill set to hit accurate kick passes are simply wrong. All you need to do is watch a county team train or if you're fortunate enough to train and play with an intercounty play at club level you'll see just how talented and skillful they are.

The problem is not the rules of the game but how managers an coaches want the game to be played. I do think that they are within their rights to implement a game plan that they think suits the panel of players they have at their disposal as they get judged on results and if the supporters or county board of that team are not happy they it's up to them to get the right coaching team put in place. Same applies at club level.

The game of 15 years ago plus is gone forever no matter what rule changes are made. Football has adapted tactics from other sports and is a way more complicated game than it once was. As much as people want the game to go back to the simplistic man on man battles, which were great to watch, it will never happen. The game has changed a lot even in the last 4 or 5 years and continues to evolve. The biggest changes have been the emphasis on defense and ball retention and both of these things make sense when you actually think about it. The better you defend and the less space you have in your defence then the harder it will be for your opponents to score. The more possession you have the better chance you will have to outscore your opponent. The top teams are now getting a better balance between defending in numbers and attacking in numbers and we've have saw an increase in scoring every year for the last number of years because of this. The reason we don't see as much kick passing is because risk taking has gone out of the game and managers don't want to see too many 50/50 or ever 60/40 passes being played anymore. The same can be said for shooting, even though as I mentioned scoring averages are increasing, the best teams don't take on a shot from a low percentage anymore. Look at the best team, I think you have to go back over 3 years since the last time Dublin had a shot from play outside the 45.

These proposed changes will not have the positive impact on the game some people want/hope as teams will find loopholes in them and it will actually send the game back in time somewhat because managers and coaches will focus on sorting their defenses out first and it may take 2 years or more to get back to the point of evolution we're at now where at least the challengers to Dublin realise that they need to score big to have a chance against them.

For what it's worth and I've mentioned this in other posts, if rule changes are brought in they need to give an incentive for attacking football and not limit or restrict what teams can do in possession. We need to create a 2 point scoring zone from a 40 meter line out (semi circle line) and increase the value of a goal to 4 points. This may force teams in possession to take some risks as there will be a bigger reward to do so. Teams won't be able to set up their blanket defence as deep as they'll have to put pressure on the 2 point zone which in turn may leave space inside for a ball to be kicked in. I would like to see this trialed and leave everything else as is. I know this probably wouldn't go down well with traditionalists but it has worked well in basketball and be interesting to see feedback from managers and coaches

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 364 - 11/01/2019 12:22:46    2156577

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Replying To Soma:  "2nd half of McKenna Cup semi final 2018, Fermanagh 0-1 Tyrone 0-2. That's a 33% increase in scoring under the new rules! The final score last year was Fermanagh 0-4 Tyrone 0-8. Tyrone are taking to these new rules like a duck to water!"
Touché..

Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 67 - 11/01/2019 12:57:35    2156589

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Replying To Mobot:  "People who think that intercounty players don't have the ability or skill set to hit accurate kick passes are simply wrong. All you need to do is watch a county team train or if you're fortunate enough to train and play with an intercounty play at club level you'll see just how talented and skillful they are.

The problem is not the rules of the game but how managers an coaches want the game to be played. I do think that they are within their rights to implement a game plan that they think suits the panel of players they have at their disposal as they get judged on results and if the supporters or county board of that team are not happy they it's up to them to get the right coaching team put in place. Same applies at club level.

The game of 15 years ago plus is gone forever no matter what rule changes are made. Football has adapted tactics from other sports and is a way more complicated game than it once was. As much as people want the game to go back to the simplistic man on man battles, which were great to watch, it will never happen. The game has changed a lot even in the last 4 or 5 years and continues to evolve. The biggest changes have been the emphasis on defense and ball retention and both of these things make sense when you actually think about it. The better you defend and the less space you have in your defence then the harder it will be for your opponents to score. The more possession you have the better chance you will have to outscore your opponent. The top teams are now getting a better balance between defending in numbers and attacking in numbers and we've have saw an increase in scoring every year for the last number of years because of this. The reason we don't see as much kick passing is because risk taking has gone out of the game and managers don't want to see too many 50/50 or ever 60/40 passes being played anymore. The same can be said for shooting, even though as I mentioned scoring averages are increasing, the best teams don't take on a shot from a low percentage anymore. Look at the best team, I think you have to go back over 3 years since the last time Dublin had a shot from play outside the 45.

These proposed changes will not have the positive impact on the game some people want/hope as teams will find loopholes in them and it will actually send the game back in time somewhat because managers and coaches will focus on sorting their defenses out first and it may take 2 years or more to get back to the point of evolution we're at now where at least the challengers to Dublin realise that they need to score big to have a chance against them.

For what it's worth and I've mentioned this in other posts, if rule changes are brought in they need to give an incentive for attacking football and not limit or restrict what teams can do in possession. We need to create a 2 point scoring zone from a 40 meter line out (semi circle line) and increase the value of a goal to 4 points. This may force teams in possession to take some risks as there will be a bigger reward to do so. Teams won't be able to set up their blanket defence as deep as they'll have to put pressure on the 2 point zone which in turn may leave space inside for a ball to be kicked in. I would like to see this trialed and leave everything else as is. I know this probably wouldn't go down well with traditionalists but it has worked well in basketball and be interesting to see feedback from managers and coaches"
Excellent post, agree with all of it

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2187 - 11/01/2019 16:15:13    2156621

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Replying To Mobot:  "People who think that intercounty players don't have the ability or skill set to hit accurate kick passes are simply wrong. All you need to do is watch a county team train or if you're fortunate enough to train and play with an intercounty play at club level you'll see just how talented and skillful they are.

The problem is not the rules of the game but how managers an coaches want the game to be played. I do think that they are within their rights to implement a game plan that they think suits the panel of players they have at their disposal as they get judged on results and if the supporters or county board of that team are not happy they it's up to them to get the right coaching team put in place. Same applies at club level.

The game of 15 years ago plus is gone forever no matter what rule changes are made. Football has adapted tactics from other sports and is a way more complicated game than it once was. As much as people want the game to go back to the simplistic man on man battles, which were great to watch, it will never happen. The game has changed a lot even in the last 4 or 5 years and continues to evolve. The biggest changes have been the emphasis on defense and ball retention and both of these things make sense when you actually think about it. The better you defend and the less space you have in your defence then the harder it will be for your opponents to score. The more possession you have the better chance you will have to outscore your opponent. The top teams are now getting a better balance between defending in numbers and attacking in numbers and we've have saw an increase in scoring every year for the last number of years because of this. The reason we don't see as much kick passing is because risk taking has gone out of the game and managers don't want to see too many 50/50 or ever 60/40 passes being played anymore. The same can be said for shooting, even though as I mentioned scoring averages are increasing, the best teams don't take on a shot from a low percentage anymore. Look at the best team, I think you have to go back over 3 years since the last time Dublin had a shot from play outside the 45.

These proposed changes will not have the positive impact on the game some people want/hope as teams will find loopholes in them and it will actually send the game back in time somewhat because managers and coaches will focus on sorting their defenses out first and it may take 2 years or more to get back to the point of evolution we're at now where at least the challengers to Dublin realise that they need to score big to have a chance against them.

For what it's worth and I've mentioned this in other posts, if rule changes are brought in they need to give an incentive for attacking football and not limit or restrict what teams can do in possession. We need to create a 2 point scoring zone from a 40 meter line out (semi circle line) and increase the value of a goal to 4 points. This may force teams in possession to take some risks as there will be a bigger reward to do so. Teams won't be able to set up their blanket defence as deep as they'll have to put pressure on the 2 point zone which in turn may leave space inside for a ball to be kicked in. I would like to see this trialed and leave everything else as is. I know this probably wouldn't go down well with traditionalists but it has worked well in basketball and be interesting to see feedback from managers and coaches"
"Teams won't be able to set up their blanket defence as deep as they'll have to put pressure on the 2 point zone which in turn may leave space inside for a ball to be kicked in."

If the above could be true, why don't teams currently kick single points from 40 metres out ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1413 - 14/01/2019 01:31:39    2156979

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If the above could be true, why don't teams currently kick single points from 40 metres out ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 1413 - 1/14/19 1:31:39 AM


High risk, low reward.

Commentators, fans, former players, pundits constantly underestimate how difficult it is to kick the ball over the bar from 40m plus.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12167 - 14/01/2019 10:16:13    2157007

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Replying To MesAmis:  "If the above could be true, why don't teams currently kick single points from 40 metres out ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 1413 - 1/14/19 1:31:39 AM


High risk, low reward.

Commentators, fans, former players, pundits constantly underestimate how difficult it is to kick the ball over the bar from 40m plus."
Exactly, you need to reward the risk. Teams don't shoot from 40m plus out often when they can stay patient and work a shot from closer in. Dublin are the best at this and I know the Donegal v Dublin from 2014 is often referenced for how Jim Gavin changed his approach to take less risks defensively but if you remember Dublin kicked 4 or 5 points from 40 meters plus in the first 20 minutes that day and had those points been worth 2 instead of 1 they probably would of won the game comfortably. I'm not sure the 2 point zone would work and I'm sure there would be some problems with it but I don't think the GAA world would be against trialing it as the whole point of it is to reward long range kicking with a risk element to it.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 364 - 14/01/2019 11:18:59    2157026

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How about we bring the sideline kick back to being off the ground in football - that might appease the auld lads crawling through twitter hours at a time who miss 1970s/80s classic matches where a box to the jaw would only be given as a yellow

WaitingInTheLongGrass (Roscommon) - Posts: 148 - 14/01/2019 11:46:35    2157031

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Is it at the ref's discretion to play advantage for the advanced mark, like they sometimes play the advantage after a foul and can then call play back if there is no advatage gained?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 4854 - 14/01/2019 14:41:28    2157063

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Unlike the kick out mark, defenders can engage the ball carrier immediately so if the carrier doesn't call the mark and plays on he can't change his mind and look for the free kick.

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 394 - 14/01/2019 17:09:01    2157086

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