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Pairc Ui Chaoimh And That Twenty Five Million Overspend

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i have no such thing as an anti cork sentiment.
what i have is an anti poor accountability,anti poor transparency,anti "ah sure keep spending it will be grand" attitude.
i dont care if it is cork or leitrim,there are very serious questions to be answered here.just like galway,just like our own county board had a few years ago when they were massively in the red (the news was a lot better this week thankfully).
these are valid questions to ask of anybody PyatPree and i dont think you or anybody should say "it is built,move on".no the gaa shouldn't.it is not good enough to say just forget about it.....that attitude has served the country very badly over the years,look at maurice mccabe,cervical check,catholic church,etc.
if that is to be the case,why don't my club spend 20m on the finest of facilities,and then come cap in hand to the gaa?

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3090 - 21/12/2018 10:05:25    2154889

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and i would also say PyatPree,your county board consists of well paid full time officials,it is not good enough on their part this whole fiasco.
heads should really be rolling.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3090 - 21/12/2018 10:10:24    2154892

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The face of the GAA has changed at an alarming rate over the past 20 years or so, it has moved faster in that short time than it moved over the previous 115 years, too much, too soon, too costly, some in monetary cost and some in human cost, human cost as in hearth ache or hearth break. The association as it was affectionately known, is now more of a Hi-Brid organization, one part is professional and the other part is amateur, that's where some of the difficulties lie.
Since 1999 / 2000 the changes that have taken place that has affected clubs and counties is countless and counterproductive to the end result of most counties in particular the weaker counties. Clubs / county boards are not shouting loud enough on behalf of their respective club and county team(s). The new playing rules that are proposed are laughable and serve no positive purpose at all, except heart ache.
There's good money after bad, millions in fact being spent on Stadiums, on Centres of excellence, on county grounds and other projects all in good faith perhaps, but - - - the changing face of the gaa is in bricks / mortar and proposals that rarely if ever improve the chance of weaker counties of progressing.
Overspends within the gaa like what happened when constructing P.U.C is unacceptable, some say that sort of thing is common with multimillion euro projects, but that doesn't make it acceptable. Does anyone realise that the repayments on the final total amount "could" be as high as 6000 euros a month. Where was the phased sign off and phased fiscal checks.
Lot's of counties has / had fiscal issues or problems, is Croke Park in a position to bail out any county that gets itself into serious financial difficulties in future, although didn't Croke Park arrange an independent audit of Galway's finances recently, more to follow.?

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 1810 - 22/12/2018 22:26:58    2155031

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supersub15,nail on head.
there are gaa clubs across the country,and indeed my own county,reeling from poorly managed projects,poorly spent money,and most shockingly people's 'sure spend the money and ask questions later' attitude.
i dont care what anybody thinks,what has gone on in pairc ui chaoimh is an utter disgrace.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3090 - 02/01/2019 20:55:51    2155503

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Looking at some recent repossessions. Nobody should give guarantees for loans. Croke Park should not guarantee loans.
If this means places like Cork cant get loans to do stupid things then great. Its called better Governance.

Also GAA units should use their own knowledge to plan constructions to meet their needs and hopefully a local quantity Surveyor will do a good job in exchange for publicity.
Avoid architects and 'Room To Improve' type scenarios

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 201 - 03/01/2019 10:05:40    2155528

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I don't condone poor financial regulation. And also poor planning. It must stop. But other sports, very very high profile sports have financial irregularities. The GAA needs to keep a close eye on every penny/cent spent from now on in.
Every receipt, every invoice must be checked out and stored away. If need be County board officials must be sent on courses in HQ . Also get the J.P McManus, Pat McDonagh and others involved!

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 1362 - 03/01/2019 11:46:14    2155536

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The investment the GAA continues to make in 'Bricks and Mortar' projects needs to be scrutinised. Is it needed. Other sports invest more in their players and support the players more. Match day crowds have peaked in all sports. By all means look after them on the day but enough with the new stadiums. We have more than enough grounds make slight improvements, dont let the stadiums deteriorate to such a state that they need to be replaced. After all the money spent only Croke Park and Cork have anything like top class facilities. For those outside of Munster who hear fairy tales about Thurles, well that's what they are, it's a very basic place with a few bars . The Gaelic Grounds is basic too but maybe basic is enough for a summer sport. We aren't going to be able to build a stadium like the Minnesota Vikings have so why throw good money after bad.
These stand alone centres of excellence are rubbish too..wait until their upkeep becomes a burden.. Why can't counties cluster around university campuses or similar facilities.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 799 - 03/01/2019 12:41:28    2155542

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When it comes to handing out contracts in this country, whether GAA, Government or whatever, involving our money, the sketch done by the great Corkman Niall Toibin about the 3 builders goes a long way to explaining the disconnect between investment and what you might get for it. We're on course to build the world's most expensive hospital in the coming years and not because this has to be the case. We can be sure that it won't be the world's best when it's finished either given the track record of our less expensive facilities. I think the best example of 'vision' and what can then be realised is the Limerick regeneration. Projected to cost an eye-watering €3+ billion when first touted during the mad times, it ended up being starved of funds due to the economic collapse 10 years ago. It has now achieved almost 50% of its priority objectives on a spend of something like €250m, with the overall spend likely to be kept to €600M or less. A lot of money, I know, but what was going to be delivered for the extra €2,400M and more I've no idea, though I'm assuming like the hospital it would have been the world's most expensive something or other, or perhaps some world class 'consultancy' would been needed to bring it to where it was going anyway!

Getting back to PUC... I have to agree with an early poster from Cavan: I haven't set foot in it yet, but seeing it on the box I can't see where the money went... it looks like a throwback. But I'm going to wait till I see it for real... there could be some hidden special features which just don't show up at all on the telly. As for who'll end up paying... we all know who that will be!

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 1819 - 03/01/2019 14:20:47    2155556

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Replying To Pericles:  "When it comes to handing out contracts in this country, whether GAA, Government or whatever, involving our money, the sketch done by the great Corkman Niall Toibin about the 3 builders goes a long way to explaining the disconnect between investment and what you might get for it. We're on course to build the world's most expensive hospital in the coming years and not because this has to be the case. We can be sure that it won't be the world's best when it's finished either given the track record of our less expensive facilities. I think the best example of 'vision' and what can then be realised is the Limerick regeneration. Projected to cost an eye-watering €3+ billion when first touted during the mad times, it ended up being starved of funds due to the economic collapse 10 years ago. It has now achieved almost 50% of its priority objectives on a spend of something like €250m, with the overall spend likely to be kept to €600M or less. A lot of money, I know, but what was going to be delivered for the extra €2,400M and more I've no idea, though I'm assuming like the hospital it would have been the world's most expensive something or other, or perhaps some world class 'consultancy' would been needed to bring it to where it was going anyway!

Getting back to PUC... I have to agree with an early poster from Cavan: I haven't set foot in it yet, but seeing it on the box I can't see where the money went... it looks like a throwback. But I'm going to wait till I see it for real... there could be some hidden special features which just don't show up at all on the telly. As for who'll end up paying... we all know who that will be!"
Its quality allright. The big stand is top class. Reat facilities. The views are serious.There's no GAA stadium to touch it except Croke Park.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 799 - 03/01/2019 17:31:51    2155583

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In my humble opinion, the gaa is a very complexed and political organization, it has gone from strength to strength over the past 120 years or so, and long may that continue, it is in fact recession proof. It's arguably the second wealthiest amateur organization in the world after the Vatican.
Tracey Kennedy has welcomed Croke Park officials in to help them deal with their financial worries, it's agreed that the cost will be dealt with and no club will be asked for a financial contribution of any kind, it appears as if a magic wand was waved, someone said Presto and all of a sudden there was no over spend and no costs to clarify or justify.
In the interest of openness and transparency, in my opinion an outside investigation firm should look into PUC's overall cost, instead of it being Páirc Uí Chaoimh directors to clarify costs of their own stadium redevelopment, it's like investigating themselves.
I think we're at a time when a term of two years "max" should be put in place for any club, or county board official to hold office, with an option of a further three months to phase in their replacement.
All croke park paid officials and anyone else that it's applicable to should volunteer their salary and overall expenses.
When my own county man Tom Ryan was asked in an interview what his salary was, he replied "it's not in anyone's interest that I should disclose that information." That's not my idea of being open and transparent. In fact by their own admission it's not the gaa's policy to disclose the salaries of full time administrators in their annual accounts.
I think the amateur status along with openness and transparency within the gaa has to be redefined.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 1810 - 03/01/2019 21:26:20    2155608

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Replying To supersub15:  "In my humble opinion, the gaa is a very complexed and political organization, it has gone from strength to strength over the past 120 years or so, and long may that continue, it is in fact recession proof. It's arguably the second wealthiest amateur organization in the world after the Vatican.
Tracey Kennedy has welcomed Croke Park officials in to help them deal with their financial worries, it's agreed that the cost will be dealt with and no club will be asked for a financial contribution of any kind, it appears as if a magic wand was waved, someone said Presto and all of a sudden there was no over spend and no costs to clarify or justify.
In the interest of openness and transparency, in my opinion an outside investigation firm should look into PUC's overall cost, instead of it being Páirc Uí Chaoimh directors to clarify costs of their own stadium redevelopment, it's like investigating themselves.
I think we're at a time when a term of two years "max" should be put in place for any club, or county board official to hold office, with an option of a further three months to phase in their replacement.
All croke park paid officials and anyone else that it's applicable to should volunteer their salary and overall expenses.
When my own county man Tom Ryan was asked in an interview what his salary was, he replied "it's not in anyone's interest that I should disclose that information." That's not my idea of being open and transparent. In fact by their own admission it's not the gaa's policy to disclose the salaries of full time administrators in their annual accounts.
I think the amateur status along with openness and transparency within the gaa has to be redefined."
Most clubs I know struggle badly to fill positions on the committee, it's a time consuming and thankless job. In most cases those in the roles would gladly pass it on after 2 years if anyone would take it. Anyone who does these roles will also tell you that it takes 2 years to even begin to understand what is required. Filling out insurance forms, applications for grants, child safety policies etc is not something most people can do correctly as soon as they step into the role but they are all vital for a club to function.
As for Pairc Ui Chaoimh, wasn't one of the country's largest property developers on the board overseeing the whole project?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2252 - 04/01/2019 10:01:47    2155620

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i could have seen the sense of putting a stadium of this magnitude in portlaoise for example,it is accessible by half the country by road/rail,is in the middle of the country,and could take the pressure off bigger games being played in croke park.
as wexford and clare showed last year,nobody wants to go near this white elephant in the corner of the country.
wexford and clare would have attracted 35-40k in thurles,once people saw cork they said no thanks.
i think this is a sentiment the gaa will pay heavily for in the years to come.
what a dreadful piece of planning which if cork gaa clubs arent paying for,the rest of us are ponying up for.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3090 - 07/01/2019 15:48:10    2155976

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Replying To perfect10:  "i could have seen the sense of putting a stadium of this magnitude in portlaoise for example,it is accessible by half the country by road/rail,is in the middle of the country,and could take the pressure off bigger games being played in croke park.
as wexford and clare showed last year,nobody wants to go near this white elephant in the corner of the country.
wexford and clare would have attracted 35-40k in thurles,once people saw cork they said no thanks.
i think this is a sentiment the gaa will pay heavily for in the years to come.
what a dreadful piece of planning which if cork gaa clubs arent paying for,the rest of us are ponying up for."
you really have a bee in your bonnet when it comes to anything Cork. I've read plenty of your posts on previous Cork related threads, and they're all negative. Did a Cork lady do a number on you by any chance ?

bloodandbandage (Cork) - Posts: 228 - 07/01/2019 16:27:04    2155983

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Replying To perfect10:  "i could have seen the sense of putting a stadium of this magnitude in portlaoise for example,it is accessible by half the country by road/rail,is in the middle of the country,and could take the pressure off bigger games being played in croke park.
as wexford and clare showed last year,nobody wants to go near this white elephant in the corner of the country.
wexford and clare would have attracted 35-40k in thurles,once people saw cork they said no thanks.
i think this is a sentiment the gaa will pay heavily for in the years to come.
what a dreadful piece of planning which if cork gaa clubs arent paying for,the rest of us are ponying up for."
the attendance was 10k. Yet suddenly an extra 25 to 30k would have turned up if it was in thurles? Wexford town to Páirc UÍ Chaoimh is 2hrs 30. Wexford to Thurles is 2 hours. Likewise from the Ennis, the time difference is 30 mins less to Thurles.

So you claim 25k to 30,000 people changed their mind and did not attend the game over 30 mins? You really need to think about the claims you make before you make them. You only lose credibility. And you are speaking to someone who pays for flights and hotels from england just to watch Galway. Yet 30,000 people didn't bother going at all over 30 mins in the car. Please stop.

Miami305 (Galway) - Posts: 107 - 07/01/2019 16:34:03    2155985

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Yes agree totally. People are going over the Top about travelling to Cork. I personally love going to matches in Cork. The county has more people and GAA clubs than all the counties in Connacht. People in Leinster under estimate the sheer size if the County because they rarely go there I think. Cork is entitled to a top class stadium, not some town in the Midlands to suit the 'home fast as you can' car brigade. The price of the stadium and it's over run is a travesty. But a separate issue entirely.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 799 - 07/01/2019 18:33:54    2156000

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I agree with supersub15 (Carlow) and I also would agree with Cork having a top class stadium. What I find difficult is the poor management of the project by all concerned and that includes Croke Park who are have little transparency themselves- the will not disclose the salaries, or indeed the cost of the various strands that make up CP. It is incorrect to suggest that this type of overrun will not effect other projects/ development.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1916 - 07/01/2019 18:57:31    2156004

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A few weeks on & the biggest issue is credibility, which story is correct & which is false, the figure quoted by a leading Croke Park official or the figure quoted by the Cork County Board official, there is a massive difference, Multiple Millions in the difference & it has just been left to wither as if hoping everyone will move on & forget it. It's just not credible to have people shrug the shoulders, there has to be accountability & transparency. If you were a potential multi national sponsor for this stadium would you part with hard earned profits into this set up when they cannot even agree on what the figure is. If you were a Minister for Sport would you just hand over grant aid when such discrepancy is an issue. It just beggars belief that the Government having invested €30 Million & the GAA themselves centrally €20 Million, that nobody has asked the simple question of what is the correct figure ? It is also not ok to say, shure it happens in all sports & walks of life & that makes it ok, if we are gone that far we are really at the bottom of the barrel. It is also very disappointing that we have no GAA journalist who is willing to really dig into the matter & ask the tough questions. The lack of clarity since paints a very bleak picture of current leadership within the GAA at all levels.

Uimhir.a.3. (Galway) - Posts: 273 - 08/01/2019 00:48:49    2156031

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i have no issue with cork or cork people,they bring great colour when cork are going well.
but lads,ye are all forgetting cork is 2hr 30 minute from wexford town with no traffic.from gorey is 3 hrs with no traffic.the roads between wexford and cork aren't good for 10-15k cars added to it.
and now maybe we all got it wrong,but 2hrs 30 minutes with no traffic is assuming you pull up at the gate and walk in,which is far from the case.most people walked for 30-40 minutes plus.now that is grand if you have no kids and all day to do it,but it is not good if you do.
we had all travelled the year before,to the waterford quarter final,and i work in the bar trade and the amount of people who said if they are ever fixed to play in cork again they will not go was unreal.
there was bedlam both going to and from that match,the n25 is a terrible road,it was nothing short of the worst experience many wexford people had had getting to/from a match.midleton,castlemartyr,absolute beldam.
wexford have brought big crowds to thurles on a very regular basis.we know the roads in and out of the place,where to park,etc.
and i think the people of wexford and clare told the gaa what they thought.why kk and limerick was put in thurles (probably 1 hr max from either county and a good motorway for a large chunk from limerick),and wexford and clare put in cork (3hrs from either on brutal roads),i will never know.
anyway,i dont think we are going to find a common ground!

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3090 - 08/01/2019 09:47:36    2156047

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2hr 30 minute from Wexford to Cork? Is this match day or today, and as prefect10 says are you parking at the back of the stand?
That journey 2 years ago to the q/f v Waterford will live long in the memory for Wexford supporters, it was without a doubt the most torturous soul destroying journey I have ever had as a Wexford supporter (and we have had bad days on the pitch but nothing compared to that). There was chaos in New Ross, Waterford, Dungarvan, Castlemartyr, and then uttter bedlam trying to park in Cork. And then there was the walk to the stadium. We were over 4.5 hours driving from Gorey and then the long walk to the stadium. And I don't have screaming kids.
If the Galway poster chooses to fly from abroad to matches that is fine, but don't be all high and mighty about people who think a 4.5 hour drive is too much when there is better alternatives around.
Wexford would have brought a great following to Thurles or Croke Park. To put that match in Cork was nothing short of a disgrace and for the GAA to try it again the following year, well I guess a Kilkenny man will always suit himself and put his match as close to home as possible.
Dress it up whatever way you want lads, lipstick on a pig is still a pig. The stadium is not fit for purpose for plenty of counties so don't try dress it up otherwise. As somebody above said, put this stadium in Portlaoise where it suits probably 15-20 counties well.
P.S. I love Cork supporters, don't think much of Cork as a city though. Sorry! Some lovely towns in West Cork mind. Love Clonakilty, Skibbereen, etc.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 218 - 08/01/2019 13:53:55    2156099

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "2hr 30 minute from Wexford to Cork? Is this match day or today, and as prefect10 says are you parking at the back of the stand?
That journey 2 years ago to the q/f v Waterford will live long in the memory for Wexford supporters, it was without a doubt the most torturous soul destroying journey I have ever had as a Wexford supporter (and we have had bad days on the pitch but nothing compared to that). There was chaos in New Ross, Waterford, Dungarvan, Castlemartyr, and then uttter bedlam trying to park in Cork. And then there was the walk to the stadium. We were over 4.5 hours driving from Gorey and then the long walk to the stadium. And I don't have screaming kids.
If the Galway poster chooses to fly from abroad to matches that is fine, but don't be all high and mighty about people who think a 4.5 hour drive is too much when there is better alternatives around.
Wexford would have brought a great following to Thurles or Croke Park. To put that match in Cork was nothing short of a disgrace and for the GAA to try it again the following year, well I guess a Kilkenny man will always suit himself and put his match as close to home as possible.
Dress it up whatever way you want lads, lipstick on a pig is still a pig. The stadium is not fit for purpose for plenty of counties so don't try dress it up otherwise. As somebody above said, put this stadium in Portlaoise where it suits probably 15-20 counties well.
P.S. I love Cork supporters, don't think much of Cork as a city though. Sorry! Some lovely towns in West Cork mind. Love Clonakilty, Skibbereen, etc."
Good post.
Very poor planning on the part of County Board. A new stadium could have been built on outskirts of city.
As well as that, Cork hotels are priced exorbitantly for the quality they deliver..

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 345 - 08/01/2019 15:24:16    2156122

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