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David V Goliath

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Replying To gormdubhgorm:  "Teams can get lucky though.
The penalty was caused because of Cian O'Sullivan's stupidity more then anything else."
If you keep digging the hole will get deeper ands maybe you will fall into it- seriously though I had assumed that all fouls were caused by either stupidity, lack of concentration, indiscipline, or inability to tackle correctly, or a combination of the aforementioned. One could say all close matches are won by luck, however excuses wins little. The scoreboard does not lie.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1942 - 13/12/2018 00:09:00    2154154

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Replying To browncows:  "If you keep digging the hole will get deeper ands maybe you will fall into it- seriously though I had assumed that all fouls were caused by either stupidity, lack of concentration, indiscipline, or inability to tackle correctly, or a combination of the aforementioned. One could say all close matches are won by luck, however excuses wins little. The scoreboard does not lie."
That is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 959 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43    2154188

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hat is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 950 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43


Don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

The aim of the game is to get more scores than the opposition. If you leave yourself in a position that you can be caught by a late score following an uncharacteristic individual error then you are not the better team on the day.

The opposition may have made mistakes too but they never made them at the most important time of the match. i.e. when they mattered more.

Luck plays its part but the blame really lies with the losing team not being good enough on the day.

Each game has its own set of circumstances and you must play to them.

Last Sunday Kilmacud were not the better team.

The scoreboard on any given day does not lie. It may not give you an accurate assessment of the two teams over a sustained period of time but it is the perfect snapshot of the two teams over the hour and a bit of play.

It's fairly obvious, the scoreboard literally tells you how good the two teams were over 60/70mins.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12226 - 13/12/2018 14:21:43    2154200

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Replying To MesAmis:  "hat is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 950 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43


Don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

The aim of the game is to get more scores than the opposition. If you leave yourself in a position that you can be caught by a late score following an uncharacteristic individual error then you are not the better team on the day.

The opposition may have made mistakes too but they never made them at the most important time of the match. i.e. when they mattered more.

Luck plays its part but the blame really lies with the losing team not being good enough on the day.

Each game has its own set of circumstances and you must play to them.

Last Sunday Kilmacud were not the better team.

The scoreboard on any given day does not lie. It may not give you an accurate assessment of the two teams over a sustained period of time but it is the perfect snapshot of the two teams over the hour and a bit of play.

It's fairly obvious, the scoreboard literally tells you how good the two teams were over 60/70mins."
That is just it it is NOT a prolonged sustained period of time it is a cup competition, a knock out competition. It is NOT a league system which guarantees the best team wins it.
A knock out cup competition by it's very nature can magnify an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
I never said that Mullinalaghta did not deserve praise for what they have done. It is the level of undue praise that is annoying they were fortunate towards the end of the game, and luck played it's part.

From the other standpoint though Mullinalaghta have shown consistency in other areas five players playing for Longford when they beat Meath in the championship. A third Longford title in a row etc.
But to paint Mullinalaghta as a better team then Kilmacud is just fanciful, they just won a one off game.

I commend Mullinalaghta for all the things they are doing right in thier club with all the ground work they are putting in.
It is by no means an overnight success (which people seem to be implying) .
More focus should be put on as to how Mullinalaghta have developed good structures planning/tactics etc with limited resources.
Rather then focusing on a one off shock result, thier progress should be viewed over a longer period.

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 959 - 13/12/2018 15:37:26    2154212

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Replying To MesAmis:  "hat is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 950 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43


Don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

The aim of the game is to get more scores than the opposition. If you leave yourself in a position that you can be caught by a late score following an uncharacteristic individual error then you are not the better team on the day.

The opposition may have made mistakes too but they never made them at the most important time of the match. i.e. when they mattered more.

Luck plays its part but the blame really lies with the losing team not being good enough on the day.

Each game has its own set of circumstances and you must play to them.

Last Sunday Kilmacud were not the better team.

The scoreboard on any given day does not lie. It may not give you an accurate assessment of the two teams over a sustained period of time but it is the perfect snapshot of the two teams over the hour and a bit of play.

It's fairly obvious, the scoreboard literally tells you how good the two teams were over 60/70mins."
Kilmacud were fairly jammy against Portaloaise for example they did not deserve to win that game.
'The scoreboard does not lie' is a myth.
Off the top of my head Kerry were a better team then the Dubs in the 2011 final, but lost.
This year the Dublin hurlers were better then Kilkenny in the round robin at Parnell but lost.

They are one off games after all 60/70 minutes. But those 60/70 minutes could be turned on a freak 2/3 minute period.

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 959 - 13/12/2018 15:58:03    2154216

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The 'adult playing' membership of the Mullinalaghta club is under 60, and that includes Junior players and U20 (which they amalgamate with neighbours Abbeylara). So their pick is way less than the 155 quoted in media. To be honest not many in Longford were totally surprised (We are born to be surprised at final wins, but objectively it was not a shock). Many of us looked at the draw earlier this year and could see a viable route to the final, which could be won. In this decade, we have had Longford clubs at Leinster Semi Final stage four times. Killoe put up two fine seasons in Leinster in 2012 and 2015, while Mullinalaghta showed great form in 2016, 2017 and obviously this year. Longford clubs have been tricky to deal with in Leinster for a while now. A follow-on from the fact that Longford underage has been tricky to deal with for a while too. The final breakthrough was coming, and the Mullinalaghta lads had shown in recent times in the County Championship that they had learned to win under pressure and pull victory out of the fire when needed. So the seeds were sown, they had some strong opposition at home to help improve their game. While it was David v Goliath because it was Longford v Dublin, in club versus club terms, Mullinalaghta were a better outfit going into the game. They deserved the win. I'm not that old but I well remember Mullinalaghta being so useless that you would have been embarrassed to lose to them. Times change and we must change with them. Hopefully breeds belief into other Longford clubs too. All good for the game, and good for the auld soul too.

arcadia (Longford) - Posts: 51 - 13/12/2018 16:08:58    2154217

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Replying To gormdubhgorm:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "hat is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 950 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43


Don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

The aim of the game is to get more scores than the opposition. If you leave yourself in a position that you can be caught by a late score following an uncharacteristic individual error then you are not the better team on the day.

The opposition may have made mistakes too but they never made them at the most important time of the match. i.e. when they mattered more.

Luck plays its part but the blame really lies with the losing team not being good enough on the day.

Each game has its own set of circumstances and you must play to them.

Last Sunday Kilmacud were not the better team.

The scoreboard on any given day does not lie. It may not give you an accurate assessment of the two teams over a sustained period of time but it is the perfect snapshot of the two teams over the hour and a bit of play.

It's fairly obvious, the scoreboard literally tells you how good the two teams were over 60/70mins."
Kilmacud were fairly jammy against Portaloaise for example they did not deserve to win that game.
'The scoreboard does not lie' is a myth.
Off the top of my head Kerry were a better team then the Dubs in the 2011 final, but lost.
This year the Dublin hurlers were better then Kilkenny in the round robin at Parnell but lost.

They are one off games after all 60/70 minutes. But those 60/70 minutes could be turned on a freak 2/3 minute period."
But that's makes no sense, you're over complicating a simple situation.

People will always claim that the "better team lost" when another team comes from behind to win a game, especially when the losing team were expected to lose beforehand. It looks like people's expectations are going to be proved correct but then they're not must mean we were actually right and that it's actually the better team that lost. I'm not wrong, it's the scoreboard that is lying and not telling the real story, despite the fact that the scoreboard is literally a statistical record of the only important aspect that decides the result of a match.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12226 - 13/12/2018 16:46:05    2154224

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Replying To MesAmis:  "
Replying To gormdubhgorm:  "[quote=MesAmis:  "hat is not true. Statements like the 'scoreboard does not lie' are as silly as statements as 'take your points and the goals will come'.
In sport sometimes the better team loses to an uncharacteristic individual error, bad ref decision, or a bit of luck on the day etc etc
gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 950 - 13/12/2018 12:53:43


Don't know if I necessarily agree with that.

The aim of the game is to get more scores than the opposition. If you leave yourself in a position that you can be caught by a late score following an uncharacteristic individual error then you are not the better team on the day.

The opposition may have made mistakes too but they never made them at the most important time of the match. i.e. when they mattered more.

Luck plays its part but the blame really lies with the losing team not being good enough on the day.

Each game has its own set of circumstances and you must play to them.

Last Sunday Kilmacud were not the better team.

The scoreboard on any given day does not lie. It may not give you an accurate assessment of the two teams over a sustained period of time but it is the perfect snapshot of the two teams over the hour and a bit of play.

It's fairly obvious, the scoreboard literally tells you how good the two teams were over 60/70mins."
Kilmacud were fairly jammy against Portaloaise for example they did not deserve to win that game.
'The scoreboard does not lie' is a myth.
Off the top of my head Kerry were a better team then the Dubs in the 2011 final, but lost.
This year the Dublin hurlers were better then Kilkenny in the round robin at Parnell but lost.

They are one off games after all 60/70 minutes. But those 60/70 minutes could be turned on a freak 2/3 minute period."
But that's makes no sense, you're over complicating a simple situation.

People will always claim that the "better team lost" when another team comes from behind to win a game, especially when the losing team were expected to lose beforehand. It looks like people's expectations are going to be proved correct but then they're not must mean we were actually right and that it's actually the better team that lost. I'm not wrong, it's the scoreboard that is lying and not telling the real story, despite the fact that the scoreboard is literally a statistical record of the only important aspect that decides the result of a match."]I don't believe that I think you are over simplifying it.
A final score does not reflect:
1) the ebb and flow of a game - who was ahead and behind at various stages
2) weather conditions
3) number of shots
4) the type of shots were they close or miles off?
5) who was playing keep ball at the what stages?
6) who was going direct at certain stages etc?

I my view a scoreboard can give a very false refection of a result, particularly where it is three points for a goal, and one for over the bar.
I think the phrase 'the scoreboard never lies' is a misnomer.
You might be confusing it with the league table never lies?

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 959 - 14/12/2018 00:20:02    2154241

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I don't believe that I think you are over simplifying it.
A final score does not reflect:
1) the ebb and flow of a game - who was ahead and behind at various stages
2) weather conditions
3) number of shots
4) the type of shots were they close or miles off?
5) who was playing keep ball at the what stages?
6) who was going direct at certain stages etc?

I my view a scoreboard can give a very false refection of a result, particularly where it is three points for a goal, and one for over the bar.
I think the phrase 'the scoreboard never lies' is a misnomer.
You might be confusing it with the league table never lies?


1 - it only matters who is ahead at full time, both teams are aware of this before the game begins.
2 - weather conditions affect both teams, the better team on the day will adapt better or at least as well as their opponents.
3 - number of shots does not matter at all and it is a misnomer to suggest it does, high conversion rates are better and are more important
4 - if it goes a cm wide or 10m wide it does make a difference, neither shot was good enough. You have failed to execute the most important part of the game
5 - possession is a way of getting scores and denying your opposition scores, it is irrelevant if you have high possession but don't turn it into scores - you haven't been good enough to win if that's the case even if you have 90% of the ball.

The point of the game is to score more than your opponent, the score board is all that matters on an individual day, all the possession/shots in the world are irrelevant to deciding who wins a game.

Teams try and keep the ball and create scoring chances in order to score. But if they don't score they have failed to execute the most important part of the game badly and therefore will deserve to lose if the opposition score more than them with less possession/shots.

When people say the 'better team lost' they are wrong. What they are saying is that normally a team with those possession/shot/chances stats would win the game against a team with less possession/shot/chances but they were not good enough at finishing the game. Their opposition were better at finishing their chances and therefore deserve their win.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12226 - 14/12/2018 11:18:51    2154255

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I don't believe that I think you are over simplifying it.
A final score does not reflect:
1) the ebb and flow of a game - who was ahead and behind at various stages
2) weather conditions
3) number of shots
4) the type of shots were they close or miles off?
5) who was playing keep ball at the what stages?
6) who was going direct at certain stages etc?

I my view a scoreboard can give a very false refection of a result, particularly where it is three points for a goal, and one for over the bar.
I think the phrase 'the scoreboard never lies' is a misnomer.
You might be confusing it with the league table never lies?


1 - it only matters who is ahead at full time, both teams are aware of this before the game begins.
2 - weather conditions affect both teams, the better team on the day will adapt better or at least as well as their opponents.
3 - number of shots does not matter at all and it is a misnomer to suggest it does, high conversion rates are better and are more important
4 - if it goes a cm wide or 10m wide it does make a difference, neither shot was good enough. You have failed to execute the most important part of the game
5 - possession is a way of getting scores and denying your opposition scores, it is irrelevant if you have high possession but don't turn it into scores - you haven't been good enough to win if that's the case even if you have 90% of the ball.

The point of the game is to score more than your opponent, the score board is all that matters on an individual day, all the possession/shots in the world are irrelevant to deciding who wins a game.

Teams try and keep the ball and create scoring chances in order to score. But if they don't score they have failed to execute the most important part of the game badly and therefore will deserve to lose if the opposition score more than them with less possession/shots.

When people say the 'better team lost' they are wrong. What they are saying is that normally a team with those possession/shot/chances stats would win the game against a team with less possession/shot/chances but they were not good enough at finishing the game. Their opposition were better at finishing their chances and therefore deserve their win."
I don't agree with that logic at all sorry!
There are major holes in it of course possession and shots matter as do other external factors (such as luck sendings off etc) which the scoreboard does not tell you.
Anyway fair to Mullinalaghta they won on the scoreboard on the day.
But a closer look needs to paid to the three in a row they won in longford and the five representatives that were on the team that beat Meath in the championship last summer.
That means they are doing a lot right behind the scenes in general. Not just on the scoreboard!

gormdubhgorm (Dublin) - Posts: 959 - 14/12/2018 14:55:46    2154284

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Replying To gormdubhgorm:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "I don't believe that I think you are over simplifying it.
A final score does not reflect:
1) the ebb and flow of a game - who was ahead and behind at various stages
2) weather conditions
3) number of shots
4) the type of shots were they close or miles off?
5) who was playing keep ball at the what stages?
6) who was going direct at certain stages etc?

I my view a scoreboard can give a very false refection of a result, particularly where it is three points for a goal, and one for over the bar.
I think the phrase 'the scoreboard never lies' is a misnomer.
You might be confusing it with the league table never lies?


1 - it only matters who is ahead at full time, both teams are aware of this before the game begins.
2 - weather conditions affect both teams, the better team on the day will adapt better or at least as well as their opponents.
3 - number of shots does not matter at all and it is a misnomer to suggest it does, high conversion rates are better and are more important
4 - if it goes a cm wide or 10m wide it does make a difference, neither shot was good enough. You have failed to execute the most important part of the game
5 - possession is a way of getting scores and denying your opposition scores, it is irrelevant if you have high possession but don't turn it into scores - you haven't been good enough to win if that's the case even if you have 90% of the ball.

The point of the game is to score more than your opponent, the score board is all that matters on an individual day, all the possession/shots in the world are irrelevant to deciding who wins a game.

Teams try and keep the ball and create scoring chances in order to score. But if they don't score they have failed to execute the most important part of the game badly and therefore will deserve to lose if the opposition score more than them with less possession/shots.

When people say the 'better team lost' they are wrong. What they are saying is that normally a team with those possession/shot/chances stats would win the game against a team with less possession/shot/chances but they were not good enough at finishing the game. Their opposition were better at finishing their chances and therefore deserve their win."
I don't agree with that logic at all sorry!
There are major holes in it of course possession and shots matter as do other external factors (such as luck sendings off etc) which the scoreboard does not tell you.
Anyway fair to Mullinalaghta they won on the scoreboard on the day.
But a closer look needs to paid to the three in a row they won in longford and the five representatives that were on the team that beat Meath in the championship last summer.
That means they are doing a lot right behind the scenes in general. Not just on the scoreboard!"
We'll agree to disagree man.

I see the point your making but just think your argument is more suited to a more prolonged period of time rather than for just one match.

In anyways well done to Mullinalaghta!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12226 - 14/12/2018 18:01:24    2154301

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Luck is something fans talk about , top class players never discuss it as they know if they prepare and execute the result should go their way , crokes did not execute and opposition took an opportunity, if they played five more times maybe Crokes would win 4 or so but that matters nothing , Crokes should not have been allowing something as fragile as luck to decide the game , did Crokes have an opportunity to progress yes why didn't they ? Because on the day be it mental or physical they couldn't take it , opposition did and that's the difference

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5174 - 14/12/2018 18:29:33    2154306

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