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Colm's Challenge

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https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/colm-orourke-lets-tackle-the-elephant-in-the-room-37539443.html

Colm O'Rourke discusses another hot topic in yesterday's Sunday Indy (link above).
To address his points, I say -

1) Keep Dubs as one.
2) Permit regional or 2nd teams in intercounty as well - e.g. Dublin Finglas, Dublin South or Dublin B.
3) Target one extra team for every 100,000 population around the country.
4) Allow neighbouring rural counties to merge for AIC - stay separate or merged in NFL - e.g. Carlow/Kilkenny/Laois/Offaly (carkilkoffalaois ?)
5) Put a cap on club playing population as well - so an excess leads to new club formation.
6) Players allowed to declare for a neighboring county instead.
7)  Target 30-40 teams nationally, with
16 teams in Leinster - say, 
12 in Dublin, 1 in Kildare, 1 in Meath and 2/3 merged/mixed county teams; say, 
8 in Ulster (all separate, except Ferm/Cavan); and say,
3 in both Munster and Connacht - Kerry, Cork, Rest of Munster, Galway, Mayo and Rest of Connacht (incl London and NY).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 19/11/2018 13:09:24    2151622

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Replying To omahant:  "https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/colm-orourke-lets-tackle-the-elephant-in-the-room-37539443.html

Colm O'Rourke discusses another hot topic in yesterday's Sunday Indy (link above).
To address his points, I say -

1) Keep Dubs as one.
2) Permit regional or 2nd teams in intercounty as well - e.g. Dublin Finglas, Dublin South or Dublin B.
3) Target one extra team for every 100,000 population around the country.
4) Allow neighbouring rural counties to merge for AIC - stay separate or merged in NFL - e.g. Carlow/Kilkenny/Laois/Offaly (carkilkoffalaois ?)
5) Put a cap on club playing population as well - so an excess leads to new club formation.
6) Players allowed to declare for a neighboring county instead.
7)  Target 30-40 teams nationally, with
16 teams in Leinster - say, 
12 in Dublin, 1 in Kildare, 1 in Meath and 2/3 merged/mixed county teams; say, 
8 in Ulster (all separate, except Ferm/Cavan); and say,
3 in both Munster and Connacht - Kerry, Cork, Rest of Munster, Galway, Mayo and Rest of Connacht (incl London and NY)."
A lot of what Colm says is right but is perceived by some to be a slight against Dublin which is rubbish, personally I wouldn't split Dublin but multiply instead and have a team in Fingal, as there was in hurling, a team from the Dun Laoghire/Rathown area and South Dublin, essentially along the administration boundaries, could lead to some good local rivalry and more chances for good players to play at inter county level. Even to have those teams play in the league only first before allowing them enter the championship to see how it goes. At present we still have players living in Meath/Kildare etc and who are playing club football in those counties, still trying to play with their native Dublin as they have no interest in playing for their adopted county, perhaps with this situation they would have a better chance to fulfill their ambitions.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 19/11/2018 13:58:50    2151632

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Good man Colm, we're grand as we are, thanks though.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 19/11/2018 14:23:07    2151642

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Can we please give up this , do you really think the Gaa would get rid of their biggest asset ? Honestly posters Dublin splitting or anything else is never going to happen. Fingal or South Dublin is a waste of time ,they will get no support from fans and no support from within Dublin to help out the team.

This is my last every comment on this it's been done to death.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 19/11/2018 15:06:38    2151651

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Replying To clondalkindub:  "Can we please give up this , do you really think the Gaa would get rid of their biggest asset ? Honestly posters Dublin splitting or anything else is never going to happen. Fingal or South Dublin is a waste of time ,they will get no support from fans and no support from within Dublin to help out the team.

This is my last every comment on this it's been done to death."
That word you used "asset" is where the problem lies, no county should be seen as an "asset" and by extension using that term to describe Dublin leads to preferential treatment, if Dublin is seen more as a commercial entity of financial worth to the GAA then everything that is done towards Dublin i.e funding in schools, coaching etc etc is being done for the wrong reasons, the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, or the one, the GAA need to remember these wise words.

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 19/11/2018 15:35:09    2151658

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Replying To Richieq:  "That word you used "asset" is where the problem lies, no county should be seen as an "asset" and by extension using that term to describe Dublin leads to preferential treatment, if Dublin is seen more as a commercial entity of financial worth to the GAA then everything that is done towards Dublin i.e funding in schools, coaching etc etc is being done for the wrong reasons, the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, or the one, the GAA need to remember these wise words."
ahHhhhhhh why did I say anything. Here we go again the same s#*t different day.

clondalkindub (Dublin) - Posts: 9926 - 19/11/2018 15:54:51    2151662

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Dublin as the biggest asset... they will eventually kill the popularity of gaelic football. Wait and see.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 19/11/2018 18:38:01    2151705

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Replying To clondalkindub:  "ahHhhhhhh why did I say anything. Here we go again the same s#*t different day."
Yeah it is the same shit different day and why, because the GAA continually decide to ignore what O'Rourke called the "elephant in the room", here's more of the same shit that happens on different days....

Dublin will again play two Super 8 games in Croke Park in 2019
Dublin will again play all their NFL home games in Croke Park
Dublin will again refuse to look at developing their own county ground that they need and their supporters deserve
Dublin will again not have to play in tough, uncompromising places like Aughrim, Newbridge, Mullingar or Longford but will, if they do leave their home in Croke Park, have the higher comforts of Nowlan Park, Portlaoise or Tullamore.
Hundreds of talented Dublin footballers will again see another 12 months go by where their talents will go unrewarded by not even having a trial or a run out at inter county level when he could be nearly gauranteed a starting place on any other county team in Ireland

So the phrase "same shit" really covers a multitude when it comes to Dublin, O'Rourke is certainly not anti dub and for that matter neither am I but I do believe that Dublin at county board level are now so cosy and content that they have taken the eye off the ball in terms of developing their own facilities and according as much of the playing population as possible a chance of intercounty football. The GAA have a lot to answer for too, I don't blame Jim Gavin or his players in fact I'll applaud them lads for their efforts and brilliance all day long but the administrators in Parnell Park know that Croke Park aren't going to ruffle their feathers and that essentially they can do as they please, the football report of 15 years ago magically disappeared and Dublin carry on regardless and then not only sought to stay as one county but sought provincial status!!!! Where will it all end?

Richieq (Meath) - Posts: 3734 - 19/11/2018 19:34:59    2151716

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What is it only dublin cannot see the imbalance in the Gaa when it comes down to the treatment of dublin. They always harp on about dublin being an asset . Look at the shit attendances in the Leinster championship in the last 10 years . 1m+ of a population In dublin and the cannot break 55k at a Leinster championship match.

Gaa is a national sport not a Dublin sport. Let's remember that. For me we should reduce the squads. Reduce the subs reduce the playing time by 10 minutes. This will not effect the quality of the game but make it fairer on the majority of the counties.

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 19/11/2018 20:24:48    2151726

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Guys, can you tefocus your thoughts.
Would you be for adding regional teams IN ADDITION to leaving the Dubs as one ?
It just gives more players access to intercounty play - in Diblin, players try to make the 1st team and if not could play for the regional team instead.
It could produce greater rivalries within Dublin and Leinster - and a more exciting AI SFC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 19/11/2018 20:56:10    2151733

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I think there is some merit in this

This isn't about splitting Dublin

It's about giving more players the opportunity to play IC in Dublin and it could create a whole new dynamic and setup local rivalries within the county. I'm not sure how well it'll be supported though and could take years to build up a support base.

Also would it give Dublin the upper hand in that it would act as a talent generator and any player that looks the part then moving to play for Dublin.

I think the combing of counties is also worth considering and allowing a more free movement of players

I think some of his ideas have merit and once again this isn't about splitting Dublin as a whole which I honestly think is a bad idea.

What self respecting country person would take pride in beating a 1/2 or 1/4 Dublin team? It would only dilute what beating Dublin is about and beating Dublin is one of thwe biggest scalps you can get and spoken about for years

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 20/11/2018 05:05:47    2151768

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Rivalries in Dublin eh, we've enough of them thanks.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8586 - 20/11/2018 06:15:05    2151769

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All dubs want is to be treated as equals, go sort the funding issue not a problem, have no issue with a fairer distribution of funds even if it does mean giving it to very poor administrative boards , my son is playing with county six years now , hopefully may make the squad under 20 if he doesn't go further he can live with it , he's no interest in playing for a diluted version of the blue jersey ,our identity is as Dublin it was when we were rubbish it is when we're successful

Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 20/11/2018 07:49:23    2151771

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Replying To jimbodub:  "I think there is some merit in this

This isn't about splitting Dublin

It's about giving more players the opportunity to play IC in Dublin and it could create a whole new dynamic and setup local rivalries within the county. I'm not sure how well it'll be supported though and could take years to build up a support base.

Also would it give Dublin the upper hand in that it would act as a talent generator and any player that looks the part then moving to play for Dublin.

I think the combing of counties is also worth considering and allowing a more free movement of players

I think some of his ideas have merit and once again this isn't about splitting Dublin as a whole which I honestly think is a bad idea.

What self respecting country person would take pride in beating a 1/2 or 1/4 Dublin team? It would only dilute what beating Dublin is about and beating Dublin is one of thwe biggest scalps you can get and spoken about for years"
I think its a bit of wolves in sheep clothing and mischievous by O Rourke, most of the suggestions.

I see nothing good in having a second team that improves standards for other counties or for Dublin, there is nothing wrong with the standard in Dublin in all honesty. Its just creates another team of limited quality and or a feeder team for Dublin A, thats not good for anyone really.

Its a high bar to make county in Dublin but not impossible. In fact as the likes of Con O Callaghan, Murchan, Scully, Howard, Fenton, Kilkenny, Basquel, Costello, McHugh, Kilkenny, Byrne, Mannion, Small, Cooper etc have proven if you are good enough you will get an opportunity with Dublin and you can crack onto an All Ireland winning team at inter county if you are good enough, its far from a closed shop. Not sure there is another county that has an equal record with giving youth and up and coming players a chance, its constant every year. So i dont see the need in all honestly.

The other thing is i personally dont believe the structure is there to support a second team in Dublin, there are 39k registered players out of a population of 1.3 odd million.

A second Dublin team drags the standard of county down for me instead of raising it, which should always be Dublin's objective, the GAA's too in my opinion.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/11/2018 10:21:32    2151784

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think its a bit of wolves in sheep clothing and mischievous by O Rourke, most of the suggestions.

I see nothing good in having a second team that improves standards for other counties or for Dublin, there is nothing wrong with the standard in Dublin in all honesty. Its just creates another team of limited quality and or a feeder team for Dublin A, thats not good for anyone really.

Its a high bar to make county in Dublin but not impossible. In fact as the likes of Con O Callaghan, Murchan, Scully, Howard, Fenton, Kilkenny, Basquel, Costello, McHugh, Kilkenny, Byrne, Mannion, Small, Cooper etc have proven if you are good enough you will get an opportunity with Dublin and you can crack onto an All Ireland winning team at inter county if you are good enough, its far from a closed shop. Not sure there is another county that has an equal record with giving youth and up and coming players a chance, its constant every year. So i dont see the need in all honestly.

The other thing is i personally dont believe the structure is there to support a second team in Dublin, there are 39k registered players out of a population of 1.3 odd million.

A second Dublin team drags the standard of county down for me instead of raising it, which should always be Dublin's objective, the GAA's too in my opinion."
"a feeder team for Dublin A, thats not good for anyone really"


Apart from Dublin A

I'm all for it. Good idea Colm.. keep the ideas coming :)

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 20/11/2018 13:34:22    2151817

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think its a bit of wolves in sheep clothing and mischievous by O Rourke, most of the suggestions.

I see nothing good in having a second team that improves standards for other counties or for Dublin, there is nothing wrong with the standard in Dublin in all honesty. Its just creates another team of limited quality and or a feeder team for Dublin A, thats not good for anyone really.

Its a high bar to make county in Dublin but not impossible. In fact as the likes of Con O Callaghan, Murchan, Scully, Howard, Fenton, Kilkenny, Basquel, Costello, McHugh, Kilkenny, Byrne, Mannion, Small, Cooper etc have proven if you are good enough you will get an opportunity with Dublin and you can crack onto an All Ireland winning team at inter county if you are good enough, its far from a closed shop. Not sure there is another county that has an equal record with giving youth and up and coming players a chance, its constant every year. So i dont see the need in all honestly.

The other thing is i personally dont believe the structure is there to support a second team in Dublin, there are 39k registered players out of a population of 1.3 odd million.

A second Dublin team drags the standard of county down for me instead of raising it, which should always be Dublin's objective, the GAA's too in my opinion."
Of course no team squad is a closed shop. That would be a self defeating exercise. But Dublin is a closed shop to all but the elite of the up and coming talent. Their huge pick ensures it keeps coming and coming and instead of cycling and lulling like all the great teams experienced in the past, they only look to be getting stronger with virtually a whole new team every few years. To compare them to any other county and ignore the huge population and resource disparity is ridiculous.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 20/11/2018 15:26:25    2151845

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Replying To jimbodub:  ""a feeder team for Dublin A, thats not good for anyone really"


Apart from Dublin A

I'm all for it. Good idea Colm.. keep the ideas coming :)"
It would be great for Dublin of course, but somehow i think that wasn't Colm's intention but if i was thinking holistically wouldnt be great for other counties in trying to close the gap.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/11/2018 16:02:40    2151855

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Replying To Hardtimes:  "Of course no team squad is a closed shop. That would be a self defeating exercise. But Dublin is a closed shop to all but the elite of the up and coming talent. Their huge pick ensures it keeps coming and coming and instead of cycling and lulling like all the great teams experienced in the past, they only look to be getting stronger with virtually a whole new team every few years. To compare them to any other county and ignore the huge population and resource disparity is ridiculous."
How does that change by having a B Team? It just adds to the quality and development of the pick. in many ways we use various competitions as feeder teams anyway. If it was that premise without a split id be for it, but would do nothing but advantage Dublin and make the gap wider, so holistically wouldn't be good for the game.

The O Byrne Cup is an example where no established A teamers are ever played. Similarly the national league we will rotate 4-5 A teamers in with hopefuls or young players.

I keep hearing this narrative of Dublin's population resource, truth is there is 39k registered players for a population of 1.3 mill. Thats pretty low pro rata and actually underlines the reason why games development money is so important, there is poor take up of Gaelic games in the capital. Many say the Dublin county board are doing a terrific job, im not so sure with those numbers, perhaps they are doing an excellent job developing the elite, we certainly have an excellent manager.

Dont get me wrong, 39k is a decent pick by any county standard, but not anywhere near the realms of two team creation or splitting counties etc IMHO. I think those debates would probably need to happen if you were looking at numbers of 100k registered players etc.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/11/2018 16:14:34    2151857

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Replying To TheUsername:  "It would be great for Dublin of course, but somehow i think that wasn't Colm's intention but if i was thinking holistically wouldnt be great for other counties in trying to close the gap."
Well that's why I'd like to see more versions of Dublin, I started a thread on the Dubs forum about it, give plenty of lads game time and allow them to shine, then move them into the Dubs panel.

I like Colm's idea!

Keep at it Collie.. you have it sussed!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 20/11/2018 16:22:48    2151858

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Replying To TheUsername:  "How does that change by having a B Team? It just adds to the quality and development of the pick. in many ways we use various competitions as feeder teams anyway. If it was that premise without a split id be for it, but would do nothing but advantage Dublin and make the gap wider, so holistically wouldn't be good for the game.

The O Byrne Cup is an example where no established A teamers are ever played. Similarly the national league we will rotate 4-5 A teamers in with hopefuls or young players.

I keep hearing this narrative of Dublin's population resource, truth is there is 39k registered players for a population of 1.3 mill. Thats pretty low pro rata and actually underlines the reason why games development money is so important, there is poor take up of Gaelic games in the capital. Many say the Dublin county board are doing a terrific job, im not so sure with those numbers, perhaps they are doing an excellent job developing the elite, we certainly have an excellent manager.

Dont get me wrong, 39k is a decent pick by any county standard, but not anywhere near the realms of two team creation or splitting counties etc IMHO. I think those debates would probably need to happen if you were looking at numbers of 100k registered players etc."
I never said I agreed with O'Rourke's proposal. I don't know where you have gotten those figures from. 39k sounds a bit low for Dub but still a colossal figure and dwarfs pretty much every county. My original post was countering your point that seeing additions to the Dublin panel every year was proof some excellent footballers in the county weren't missing out on IC exposure. That's simply illogical.
I don't know what way the GAA is heading or have zero interest in sparking up anti-county debates but I do see why some county's posters get frustrated with some Dublin posters on here. To ignore the huge playing pick available to Dublin is disingenuous when the argument of Dublin's dominance comes up. To ignore this difference, to imply that Dublin are different because they do things different and other counties should simply get their fingers out is not only disingenuous but insulting. Most counties are peaked out. If there is one county that has the scope to raise the bar significantly more it's probably Dublin again.
5 in a row of AI's is unprecedented. You can only admire the Dublin players atm but if they canter to the 5 in a row and still have a young fresh panel and look to get even stronger again, I cannot see how this is a healthy situation for the GAA or indeed any sport. They look odds on favourites to do so. I've never advocated a split in Dublin and was always of the stance to wait and see if the competitiveness returns but I do understand the debate picking up steam. And in a few years time it might be all the debate.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 20/11/2018 18:08:03    2151875

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