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Replying To tearintom: "No the point you were making is that there has been a lack of underage success and a lack of success in hurling when quite simply the facts of the matter don't back this up and even when one of your teams "only" wins Leinster they still pull players from that team through to senior.
The fact you can look at your counties underage success in both codes and claim that's not really success says it all really! Underage since 2005 it's been your most successful period ever!!" I think the message has become lost in the mist here. Let's forget about hurling. The charge at Dublin in the media is that money breeds success, success being senior championship titles. We haven't had it in hurling despite all of the money and we are arguably further off than we were 7-8 years ago under Daly. So after two decades of split funding we have not reached the goal. In football we have 4 U 21 titles and 2 minor titles in the past 15 years of each. How anyone can conclude from this that money equates to eternal dominance based on these facts is beyond me. The senior footballers have had a golden generation and should they do the 5 in a row next year then that generation will come to an end with retirements. So in conclusion, has money tarnished the Dublin senior football team's achievements. Absolutely not. Money doesn't buy you great talented players who apply themselves 100% to hard work to improve and develop. This is an exceptional group of players and while Dublin will always be competitive we will never witness the likes of these lads again no matter how many billions the snakes in the grass on Twitter claim the GAA throws at the DCB.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 13/09/2018 11:13:20
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Here are the u21 and u18 results of the last decade. Work backwards from this to find out who are going to be competing in the next decade or so.
Minor honours Winners/Runners up.
2008 Tyrone Mayo
2009 Armagh Mayo
2010 Tyrone Cork
2011 Tipp Dublin
2012 Dublin Meath
2013 Mayo Tyrone
2014 Kerry Donegal
2015 Kerry Tipp
2016 Kerry Galway
2017 Kerry Derry
2018 Kerry Galway
1 Kerry over the next 12 years are going to be unbelievable if they transition these minors to u20 to senior, or even skip the u20.
2 Tyrone. Their 2008/2009 winners should be 27/28 years old now. This should be their purple patch.
3 Mayo. Same as Tyrone, in age demography but with 2 losses and 1 win.
4 Dublin/Tipp. At the mid 20 mark now. 1 loss, 1 win each.
5 Honourable mention to Galway who were in 2 finals and will be coming on board the seniors in 3-5 years time
U21 honours.
2008 Tyrone Mayo
2009 Cork Down
2010 Dublin Donegal
2011 Galway Cavan
2012 Dublin Ross
2013 Galway Cork
2014 Dublin Ross
2015 Tyrone Tipp
2016 Mayo Cork
2017 Dublin Galway
2018 Kildare Mayo (u20)
1 Dublin. 4 wins in the last 9 seasons. Says it all.
2 Galway. 2 wins and runners up last year. Strong contenders in years to come.
3 Tyrone. 2 wins, although you can discount 2008 as a reflection of future, but current.
4 The field. Too erratic in their appearances to merit mention. Bar Cork in 2009, 2013 (runners up), who's seniors are in total disarray.
The conclusions after combining the above form.
Kerry are in very rude health for the future, IF they can transition their youth to u20 or even skip this age bracket. I would imagine that many county outfits will be looking at asking (persuading)? their very talented youth to play senior rather than u20. It will be most interesting to see what form emerges from the u20 competition as a result of this, as teams now will most likely be streaming their young talent directly into the senior grade. We will see.
Dublin are in rude health for the future on the back of their u21 form and age demography. They are both looking forward to and reaping the rewards of this under age success. Their 2011/2012 minors should be available if needed. I Don't have the info on how many of them are playing inter county now, but they can dove tail nicely with the u21 winners. Take it out of this collective group and you would have a winning pool of players.
3 Galway. They are looking good with their form in u21 who are all now senior as well as their corofin batch. Combine this with 2 runners up teams at minors this year and 2 years ago and they should be formidable.
4 Mayo. Mayo's u21s are now at the mid 20 mark. Their 2016 minor final win should auger well for the future.
5 Tyrone. They look like they are peaking now as a team as their youth are now at the age. They dont have anything coming through though. I would say next 2 years are do or die for them.
Honorable mention to Tipp who have had u21 and minor success, but have not made it in the back door at senior level. Legacy of a hurling county will haunt their footballers it would seem.
Argue away lads about who made the transition to seniors, but all you need is a few, not several all Ireland under age winners to combine with the senior ranks and you have a winning formula.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 13/09/2018 13:16:59
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Im a bit dumbfounded with some of the comments, on underage here, surely its a good thing. Ive no problem owning Dublins U21 success its been great.
Minor is a different show, ive thought for a long time that Dublin approach minor in a very different way to most other counties. Essentially minor for Dublin is about player development and exposing as many players a s possible to inter county, the purpose is to expose and im not sure to much emphasis is placed on particularly competitive. Its often seen by a swath of changes from match to match, its grand if we win it but i dont think that is the priority.
I think Dublin focus changes at U21/20 that is something they do take seriously and Dublin put a lot of effort in cultivating the development work done in minor into that stage of development, the competition is taken very seriously with intent to go all the way.
You just have to look at the Dublin groups who didnt do well in the Championship at minor who went on to win U21 honors.
Its an interesting model and up until this point has been successful.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 13/09/2018 13:43:00
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Looking at the last 10 years, which is the relevant time frame, u18s is dominated by Kerry.
Tie for 2nd with Tyrone, Dublin and Tipp who also were runners up once.
3rd is Armagh (2009) hardly relevant now, and Mayo.
u21s over the last decade has been dominated by Dublin (4 titles)
Galway are 2nd with 2.
Kildare, Mayo, Cork, Tyrone are in joint 3rd.
We could go back 20, 30, 40 years and reframe winning numbers to support arguments, but the bottom line is that a decade is a fair timeframe.
Kerry and Dublin are well ahead.
Galway look competitive.
Tyrone are respectable, but not in the same league.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 13/09/2018 18:47:58
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Replying To Donegalman: "Looking at the last 10 years, which is the relevant time frame, u18s is dominated by Kerry.
Tie for 2nd with Tyrone, Dublin and Tipp who also were runners up once.
3rd is Armagh (2009) hardly relevant now, and Mayo.
u21s over the last decade has been dominated by Dublin (4 titles)
Galway are 2nd with 2.
Kildare, Mayo, Cork, Tyrone are in joint 3rd.
We could go back 20, 30, 40 years and reframe winning numbers to support arguments, but the bottom line is that a decade is a fair timeframe.
Kerry and Dublin are well ahead.
Galway look competitive.
Tyrone are respectable, but not in the same league." I know you are looking for a direct correlationat underage to predict the future, but three of those counties are the most successful counties in Gaelic football ever.
Galway, Dublin and Kerry are the most successful counties in Gaelic football, so you wouldn't fall of your chair in shock to see them win All Ireland in the future underage success or not.
They are always strong at underage and senior.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 13/09/2018 19:11:37
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Replying To TheUsername: "I know you are looking for a direct correlationat underage to predict the future, but three of those counties are the most successful counties in Gaelic football ever.
Galway, Dublin and Kerry are the most successful counties in Gaelic football, so you wouldn't fall of your chair in shock to see them win All Ireland in the future underage success or not.
They are always strong at underage and senior." So based on all of these posts, stats and analysis, have Dublin bought their success and will we see this cash bloated beast holding Sam hostage for the next couple of decades as the media doomsday merchants predict? Is Dublin's success tarnished and bought?
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 13/09/2018 21:13:48
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Replying To TheUsername: "I know you are looking for a direct correlationat underage to predict the future, but three of those counties are the most successful counties in Gaelic football ever.
Galway, Dublin and Kerry are the most successful counties in Gaelic football, so you wouldn't fall of your chair in shock to see them win All Ireland in the future underage success or not.
They are always strong at underage and senior." Dublin did not have any success at u21 level bar 2003. Then 4 out of 8 between 2020 a d 2017. The competition dates right back to the mid 60s. Kerry at minor level didn't win for 20 years. Then 5 in a row between 2014 and now.
Both runs are against their own counties form book, it is systematic targeting of the competitions and nothing to do with 'just being a result of' strong tradition.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/09/2018 09:18:50
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Replying To Donegalman: "Dublin did not have any success at u21 level bar 2003. Then 4 out of 8 between 2020 a d 2017. The competition dates right back to the mid 60s. Kerry at minor level didn't win for 20 years. Then 5 in a row between 2014 and now.
Both runs are against their own counties form book, it is systematic targeting of the competitions and nothing to do with 'just being a result of' strong tradition." I would agree and disagree with you to an extent.
Taking minor Dublin and Kerry are the most successful counties in minor ever, as in senior. saying that both are going to win an All Ireland because of this is like saying Celtic or Rangers are going to win an SPL because they have good underage for the next 10 years. Galway arent far behind.
Id agree with you at U 20/21 i think Dublin are completely unfussed at minor level in fact i think they let the lads just have fun and exposure to inter county. I think the purposely target U20/21 for serious consideration. I also think you cant generalise, Kerry are coming out of Munster so like the old traditional championship are straight into semi without much fuss. they have been winning minors since 2015, yet while some have come through its the 17 minor vintage in O Shea and Clifford who have made arguably a significant impact, the Kerry lads will know more. In Leinster you have to 4 games to win it, i think Kerry play for games to win the whole thing, im not sure what its like in Connacht or Ulster.
The real head scratchier is their dominance at minor and failure at U21/21, that raises questions for me on presumptions of guaranteed pathways to direct senior success. as does the fact as you say Dublin have been poor at minor yet dominant at 21s and senior. Both of those things a\re things are in conflict which i think rebuts the point you are making. Nor is it linear, the best of Kerry minor team of 17 is in their senior team already, im sure there will be a few more to come.
So for me their are many variables to consider rather then just accepting that teams will go on the have great senior teams in a liner way, they will have good senior team of course Dublin, galway and Kerry always do but its not some kind of break through in thinking, they are always strong at senior.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/09/2018 10:13:35
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Replying To Joxer: "So based on all of these posts, stats and analysis, have Dublin bought their success and will we see this cash bloated beast holding Sam hostage for the next couple of decades as the media doomsday merchants predict? Is Dublin's success tarnished and bought?" What goes must come down a chara its the laws of physics.
Dublin will regress and you wont get 20 posts when the time comes over fiances etc, personally i like being criticized for winning as opposed to be mocked for loosing.
A telling fact will be Jim in my opinion i think we will be as successful as long as he is at the helm. he could decide to go if he wins five next year and come back in a few years as he is still young man. If i was to call it i think he has a special bond with the 2014 U21 winners and he may stay for the life cycle of that team. If you look at the years of 2011-2013 as a microcosm its evident of Jim influence, 2011 was fantastic and in a way a huge effort to get over the line, Dublin slipped back into the pack in 2012, in 2013 Jim took over and Dublin have raised the bar beyond anything seen in the game before under his tenure.
My own opinion is that we will return to the median, we wont see a period like 16 years without an ALL Ireland again, many on here presume that is Dublin natural position due to their age, but in reality it was the worst period in Dublin illustrious history. We will be there or thereabouts most years competing. I think whatever comes after Dublin will be lauded in the short term as it will be more competitive, but the baseline standard will be lower, its going to be a long long times in the game before a team reaches the standard that this Dublin team have set in my opinion.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/09/2018 10:46:52
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Replying To TheUsername: "I would agree and disagree with you to an extent.
Taking minor Dublin and Kerry are the most successful counties in minor ever, as in senior. saying that both are going to win an All Ireland because of this is like saying Celtic or Rangers are going to win an SPL because they have good underage for the next 10 years. Galway arent far behind.
Id agree with you at U 20/21 i think Dublin are completely unfussed at minor level in fact i think they let the lads just have fun and exposure to inter county. I think the purposely target U20/21 for serious consideration. I also think you cant generalise, Kerry are coming out of Munster so like the old traditional championship are straight into semi without much fuss. they have been winning minors since 2015, yet while some have come through its the 17 minor vintage in O Shea and Clifford who have made arguably a significant impact, the Kerry lads will know more. In Leinster you have to 4 games to win it, i think Kerry play for games to win the whole thing, im not sure what its like in Connacht or Ulster.
The real head scratchier is their dominance at minor and failure at U21/21, that raises questions for me on presumptions of guaranteed pathways to direct senior success. as does the fact as you say Dublin have been poor at minor yet dominant at 21s and senior. Both of those things a\re things are in conflict which i think rebuts the point you are making. Nor is it linear, the best of Kerry minor team of 17 is in their senior team already, im sure there will be a few more to come.
So for me their are many variables to consider rather then just accepting that teams will go on the have great senior teams in a liner way, they will have good senior team of course Dublin, galway and Kerry always do but its not some kind of break through in thinking, they are always strong at senior." If I were to assess it, I would say it is down to something more organised. There is an arms race going on between Kerry and Dublin, and you are right, Galway are right up there too in under age focus. Before the 2010s onwards, there were movers and shakers, most notably Cork in the u21s at the end of the 00's, but not Dublin, Kerry nor Galway bar the one off finals. The field are not showing the same form following the big 2 into this decade. Before this, with the exception of Cork, there was an erratic pattern of success in the under age competitions.
I would follow this with a lot of interest. Nothing is being left to chance any more.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/09/2018 11:11:38
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Replying To Donegalman: "If I were to assess it, I would say it is down to something more organised. There is an arms race going on between Kerry and Dublin, and you are right, Galway are right up there too in under age focus. Before the 2010s onwards, there were movers and shakers, most notably Cork in the u21s at the end of the 00's, but not Dublin, Kerry nor Galway bar the one off finals. The field are not showing the same form following the big 2 into this decade. Before this, with the exception of Cork, there was an erratic pattern of success in the under age competitions.
I would follow this with a lot of interest. Nothing is being left to chance any more." Dont get me wrong i definitely feel there is a more organised approach to it as you say then say in years gone be particularly as you say by the traditionally successful counties, in a way i think that needs to be commended.
The interesting thing i find at underage is that it is a level playing filed essentially at minor you are getting the best players from 17 down, this allows teams like Meath and Wicklow as examples this year to play and beat Dublin at this level. However that equity goes out the window when you look at the numbers of games to come out of Leinster and the structure there in comparison to Munster and Kerry route. Its part of the reason im little reluctant to read to much into minor success.
What i find facinating though is the approach Kerry look they priortise minor, while Dublin look to priortise under 20/21s its a very interesting contrast in approaches to underage, what will eb intriguing is which one will go onto to have the success in the next decade and what philosophy will prove the most successful.
Despite a lack of comparative success i dont Donegal are any slouches either in their underage, you couldnt find better players then Eoghan Ban, Thompson, McBrearty and Murphy as staggered players to to come through from underage, im sure im missing many, but you take my point. Im not sure Kerry have better underage players then donegal or certainly in marginal call on whats come through at senior based on what ive seen thus far.
I think you dont necessarily need teams coming through you need a consistent staggered quality addition that adds to be pretty decent core, kind of what like Doengal, Galway and Dublin are doing presently. Kerry this year seemed to flood young players through and didnt quite work for them, so it will be interesting to see how they develop.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/09/2018 12:49:33
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Replying To TheUsername: "What goes must come down a chara its the laws of physics.
Dublin will regress and you wont get 20 posts when the time comes over fiances etc, personally i like being criticized for winning as opposed to be mocked for loosing.
A telling fact will be Jim in my opinion i think we will be as successful as long as he is at the helm. he could decide to go if he wins five next year and come back in a few years as he is still young man. If i was to call it i think he has a special bond with the 2014 U21 winners and he may stay for the life cycle of that team. If you look at the years of 2011-2013 as a microcosm its evident of Jim influence, 2011 was fantastic and in a way a huge effort to get over the line, Dublin slipped back into the pack in 2012, in 2013 Jim took over and Dublin have raised the bar beyond anything seen in the game before under his tenure.
My own opinion is that we will return to the median, we wont see a period like 16 years without an ALL Ireland again, many on here presume that is Dublin natural position due to their age, but in reality it was the worst period in Dublin illustrious history. We will be there or thereabouts most years competing. I think whatever comes after Dublin will be lauded in the short term as it will be more competitive, but the baseline standard will be lower, its going to be a long long times in the game before a team reaches the standard that this Dublin team have set in my opinion." That's my view too and goes back to my assertion that Jim inherited a very special group of players, a golden generation. He is undoubtedly tactically astute but he also inherited an incredible panel. He didn't drag up a group of no hopers from the depths of oblivion. He knew what he was getting into. I think he will reassess the situation next year regardless of how we do. If he sees that we have maintained a strong nucleus then he may stay. Money isn't going to buy us a new Connolly, Flynn, Brogan, MDMA and Kevin Mc that's for sure so we have to hope that a couple of U21s come through.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 14/09/2018 15:26:23
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