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Omahants Competition Formats/Proposals

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In hurling you'd be talking tiers of the following:

League/Qualifiers period

10/12/13 4 qualifiers for the championship.

Championship then

14/12/9 in each tier.

Again teams getting 2 competitions at a mix of levels whilst still keeping the competition at 3 tiers for each part of the season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 13/07/2018 11:30:49    2121270

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That Champp mid 12 would then have 2 McD and 2 Rackard teams included with the Ring teams. I wonder if the Meagher teams would be out of their depth in the low NHL 13 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1234 - 13/07/2018 20:50:58    2121442

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Replying To omahant:  "That Champp mid 12 would then have 2 McD and 2 Rackard teams included with the Ring teams. I wonder if the Meagher teams would be out of their depth in the low NHL 13 ?"
Yeah sure, they probably would be be a little, it's intentional though. Give teams experience against a better quality of opposition but still have another competition that they can aim to.

Some teams will be targeting league a little more and others championship but maybe there's a little bit more movement and progression over time than currently exists in hurling.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 13/07/2018 21:18:01    2121448

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Go back to basics in hurling and apply group stage for the All-Ireland series;

12 teams in traditional knockout provincial championships. 4 quarter-final losers should enter a play-off round robin. Top two to join provincial semi-finalists in 2 groups of 5 in the All-Ireland Championship.

Bottom team in the 4 team round robin relegated. McDonagh Cup winner promoted to their provincial championship of the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 14/07/2018 20:32:37    2121701

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FOOTBALL 20 team All-Ireland series;

4 provincial finalists from Connaught and Munster. (Provinces with less than 8 teams classified as single branch championships and awarded 2 places each.)
8 provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. (Provinces with more than 8 teams classified as double branch championships and awarded 4 places each.)
1 or 0 All-Ireland winner from previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
1 or 0 Championship II winner from the previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
6, 7 or 8 qualifiers. (Number of qualifier spaces will depend on progress of All-Ireland winner and Championship II winner in their respective provinces. 18, 19 or 20 teams would enter the qualifiers.)

All-Ireland qualifiers rounds;
18, 19 or 20 teams will enter the qualifiers in pursuit of 6, 7 or 8 spots respectively.
Number of teams entering the qualifiers will be known after Connaught and Munster semi-finals, and after Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
Qualifiers to take place over 2 qualifying rounds.
League placing used to grant byes from Qualifier Round 1 as necessary.

20 teams into 4 groups of 5;

2 home games and 2 away games each.
Provincial winners drawn as top seeds.
Provincial runners-up drawn as second seeds.
Provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster drawn as third seeds.
All remaining counties drawn as seeds 4 and 5 ranked on league placing.
Top 2 from each group into All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Championship II;
4 groups of 3.
1 home game and 1 away game each.
Top 2 from each group into quarter-finals. Top team from each group given home advantage in the quarter-finals.
Championship II winner guaranteed a spot in the All-Ireland group stage of the following year.

Main positives;
All teams get two bites at the All-Ireland group stage cherry.
All teams get the same number of home games in the group stage.
Provincial semi-finalists in Connaught and Munster might only have to win one game to qualify for the All-Ireland series. This opportunity will also be available for Leinster and Ulster quarter-finalists. This restores balance in the provincial system. Championship II participants are offered a meaningful reward for winning the championship. This opportunity is also rewarded to the All-Ireland winner in the interests of fairness.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 15/07/2018 13:34:32    2122055

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Replying To legendzxix:  "FOOTBALL 20 team All-Ireland series;

4 provincial finalists from Connaught and Munster. (Provinces with less than 8 teams classified as single branch championships and awarded 2 places each.)
8 provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. (Provinces with more than 8 teams classified as double branch championships and awarded 4 places each.)
1 or 0 All-Ireland winner from previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
1 or 0 Championship II winner from the previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
6, 7 or 8 qualifiers. (Number of qualifier spaces will depend on progress of All-Ireland winner and Championship II winner in their respective provinces. 18, 19 or 20 teams would enter the qualifiers.)

All-Ireland qualifiers rounds;
18, 19 or 20 teams will enter the qualifiers in pursuit of 6, 7 or 8 spots respectively.
Number of teams entering the qualifiers will be known after Connaught and Munster semi-finals, and after Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
Qualifiers to take place over 2 qualifying rounds.
League placing used to grant byes from Qualifier Round 1 as necessary.

20 teams into 4 groups of 5;

2 home games and 2 away games each.
Provincial winners drawn as top seeds.
Provincial runners-up drawn as second seeds.
Provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster drawn as third seeds.
All remaining counties drawn as seeds 4 and 5 ranked on league placing.
Top 2 from each group into All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Championship II;
4 groups of 3.
1 home game and 1 away game each.
Top 2 from each group into quarter-finals. Top team from each group given home advantage in the quarter-finals.
Championship II winner guaranteed a spot in the All-Ireland group stage of the following year.

Main positives;
All teams get two bites at the All-Ireland group stage cherry.
All teams get the same number of home games in the group stage.
Provincial semi-finalists in Connaught and Munster might only have to win one game to qualify for the All-Ireland series. This opportunity will also be available for Leinster and Ulster quarter-finalists. This restores balance in the provincial system. Championship II participants are offered a meaningful reward for winning the championship. This opportunity is also rewarded to the All-Ireland winner in the interests of fairness."
I actually think that this is a format that could work in reality.

It could be the best one I've seen to be honest.

I like that there's only 2 rounds and that league placing contributes to seeding.

I think I'd schedule the tournament so that a teams seeding determines the weeks that they play.

So Provincial champions play on week 1,2,4 and 5. The most favourable weeks.

Provincial runners up and 3rd seeds get a 1, 3, 4, 5 or 1, 2, 3, 5.

The qualifiers gets 1, 2, 3, 4 or 2, 3, 4, 5.

I like that the B championship is a little shorter. 6 weekends for it. The final can coincide with a quarterfinal.

I think home away scheduling works better for the early stages of the championship rather than the later stages where neutral venues that are most suited to the fixture in question should be used.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 15/07/2018 13:50:40    2122067

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Replying To legendzxix:  "FOOTBALL 20 team All-Ireland series;

4 provincial finalists from Connaught and Munster. (Provinces with less than 8 teams classified as single branch championships and awarded 2 places each.)
8 provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. (Provinces with more than 8 teams classified as double branch championships and awarded 4 places each.)
1 or 0 All-Ireland winner from previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
1 or 0 Championship II winner from the previous year. (0 as might qualify through provincial championship as well.)
6, 7 or 8 qualifiers. (Number of qualifier spaces will depend on progress of All-Ireland winner and Championship II winner in their respective provinces. 18, 19 or 20 teams would enter the qualifiers.)

All-Ireland qualifiers rounds;
18, 19 or 20 teams will enter the qualifiers in pursuit of 6, 7 or 8 spots respectively.
Number of teams entering the qualifiers will be known after Connaught and Munster semi-finals, and after Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals.
Qualifiers to take place over 2 qualifying rounds.
League placing used to grant byes from Qualifier Round 1 as necessary.

20 teams into 4 groups of 5;

2 home games and 2 away games each.
Provincial winners drawn as top seeds.
Provincial runners-up drawn as second seeds.
Provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster drawn as third seeds.
All remaining counties drawn as seeds 4 and 5 ranked on league placing.
Top 2 from each group into All-Ireland quarter-finals.

Championship II;
4 groups of 3.
1 home game and 1 away game each.
Top 2 from each group into quarter-finals. Top team from each group given home advantage in the quarter-finals.
Championship II winner guaranteed a spot in the All-Ireland group stage of the following year.

Main positives;
All teams get two bites at the All-Ireland group stage cherry.
All teams get the same number of home games in the group stage.
Provincial semi-finalists in Connaught and Munster might only have to win one game to qualify for the All-Ireland series. This opportunity will also be available for Leinster and Ulster quarter-finalists. This restores balance in the provincial system. Championship II participants are offered a meaningful reward for winning the championship. This opportunity is also rewarded to the All-Ireland winner in the interests of fairness."
I genuinely think you should propose this to the cpa or at your club agm to be brought as a motion to congress.

There are small negatives.

Groups of 5 increase the risk of dead rubbers. To be honest though I think it is better earlier in a tournament and so is better than our current system.

A very small tweak would be to have 3 from each group qualify but then you could have a situation where a team has lost 4 from 6 matches and can be still in the All Ireland series so I think your 2 going through is better.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 15/07/2018 13:57:45    2122069

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I genuinely think you should propose this to the cpa or at your club agm to be brought as a motion to congress.

There are small negatives.

Groups of 5 increase the risk of dead rubbers. To be honest though I think it is better earlier in a tournament and so is better than our current system.

A very small tweak would be to have 3 from each group qualify but then you could have a situation where a team has lost 4 from 6 matches and can be still in the All Ireland series so I think your 2 going through is better."
Thanks, I've outlined the basics. The minute detail would have to be teased out by the powers that be.

A GAA ranking could be used at the end of the championship;
1. All-Ireland winner
2. All-Ireland runners-up
3-4. All-Ireland semi-finalists (League placing to decide 3 and 4.)
5-8. All-Ireland quarter-finalists (LP - League placing.)
9-12. Third placed teams (LP)
13-16. Fourth placed teams. (LP)
17-20. Fifth placed teams. (LP)
21. Championship II winner.
22. Championship II runners-up.
23-24. Championship II semi-finalists. (LP)
25-28. Championship II quarter-finalists. (LP)
29-32. All remaining teams. (LP)

The GAA ranking could be used for provincial draws of the following year. It could aid avoidance of dead rubbers as teams look to finish as high as possible. It could mean a provincial bye in the following year or avoiding big teams.

The GAA ranking could be some form of wrap around ranking. The ranking ar the end of the championship as outlined above. The ranking at the end of the next league being a mix of the previous championship and current league. It'll be a very dynamic ranking, with teams fully in control of their destiny every year to move up or down.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 15/07/2018 14:18:53    2122079

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I like this idea as well - max of 11 games for an Uls Prelim Rd winner to win Sam (Prov 4, Group 4, AI Series 3; - or Prov 2, Quals 2, Group 4, AI Series 3).
How would NFL work - unchanged 4x8 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1234 - 17/07/2018 04:38:54    2122976

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Replying To omahant:  "I like this idea as well - max of 11 games for an Uls Prelim Rd winner to win Sam (Prov 4, Group 4, AI Series 3; - or Prov 2, Quals 2, Group 4, AI Series 3).
How would NFL work - unchanged 4x8 ?"
1A, 1B, 2A and 2B;
Divisions of 6.
Top 2 into division final.
Division winners promoted. (Obviously not the case for top division.)
Bottom team relegated.

3A and 3B;
Divisions of 4.
Play on home and away basis.
No need for finals as teams will have played each other twice in a fair home and away format.
Top team promoted and division winner.
Bottom team from 3A relegated.

This league structure and proposed All-Ireland structure cab easily run from beginning of February to the middle of August. This also has considered time for hurling fixtures.

County club championships and provincial club championships can easily be completed from mid August to the end of November.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 17/07/2018 17:53:32    2123242

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Ok so I've a different one that's somewhat inspired be Legendzxix's.

The football championship is a 2 tiered tournament of 16 teams in each tier.

2 groups of 8 in each tier.

Top 3 from each group into playoffs.

Top 5 from each group in tier 1 retain their place in the top tier.

Tier 2 champion gets a place in the top tier the following season.

At the start of each season 5 places remain open in the top tier. These are determined by the Provincial championships.

The 5 places are allocated in a top down approach based on Provincial championship performance rated in the following order of preference.

Tranche 1. Provincial champions
Tranche 2. Ulster and Leinster runners up
Tranche 3. Munster and Connacht runners up
Tranche 4. Ulster and Leinster semifinalists
Tranche 5. Ulster/Leinster quarterfinalists and Munster/Connacht semifinalists.

Realistically it's unlikely that the 5 teams will be allocated by tranche 4. After the Ulster/Leinster quarterfinals and Munster/Connacht semifinals we will know the number of Tranche 5 teams not already qualified and how many places are available to them. 2 or 3 rounds of qualifiers will return the Tier 1 championship lineup.

No NFL. 4 Provincial championship weeks, 7 group stage games plus 3 playoff rounds in the intercounty season.

Championship finishing position is used to seed teams to determine Provincial championship byes for the following season.

Lots of time for club football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 18/07/2018 05:55:50    2123363

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@Whammo86

It's a good plan. I enjoy the league though and don't want it scrapped. I think there's a place for a 5 match regular league season prior to the championships. We are still speaking about an amateur sport.

County club championships and provincial club championships can very easily be completed from the middle of August to the end of November.

While I like a GAA plan to possibly bring the All-Ireland club finals to the beginning of December, it's hard to see those club finals moving from the March slot.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 18/07/2018 19:29:58    2123585

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As one of us has written repeatedly in the past - we should give this a rest - and enjoy the games ! :)

I seem to get 'cold turkey' myself regularly and just pull you guys in ! -
Sorry, but I enjoy the idea sharing.

@Whammo86 - 'Tranche' - excuse me - enough to have the 'powers-that-be' take a run for the hills :)

@Legendzxix - I don't know if you've seen/opined on Leandro Shara's ideas - I'd like to see what you think (found his name in a World Soccer mag piece a few yrs ago - also on web) -

Essentially, he argues against tournament group structure for a variety of reasons - dead rubbers, matches played to a result that benefit both teams, throwing games to get a target KO opponent, no group head-to-head between best teams etc.
His main idea is liked by Wham and me - but is querky - I'll use the World Cup Finals as an example -
Divide any number of Finalists into a determined number of seeded pots - using Russia 2018, that is 4 pots of 8.
Teams are scheduled to play an equal number of teams from each pot including THEIR OWN !
So, say each 2018 Finalist plays 1 per pot for 4 games instead (each team plays a unique quartet).
While there are no groups, each team plays a relatvely 'equal strength' schedule.
At the end of the regular season (4 matches here), all 32 teams are placed in one table, with the desired quantity of top teams (16 here) advancing to the KO stage (1v16, 2v15 etc adds incentive to do well and teams have less control over earning the lower 14-15-16 berths - best winners could continue, or not, to play weakest winners in other rounds).

In your wish for NFL retention, you could have say, a limited 2 tiered divisions of 16, each with 2 pots.
So in Div 1- say, teams could play 3 from each pot for a 6-match schedule, with a Top 6 KO emerging from each 16.
See Wham's good post earlier where he used Shara for both league (14 T1 / 18 T2) and championship (20 T1 / 12 T2 - champp can incorporate the Prov results in tables as well).
Plenty of flexibility to determine league size and season length, if there was only a will to try something different / better.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1234 - 18/07/2018 22:41:48    2123633

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@Wham - You didn't like the possible 'tanking' aspect in my prior handicapping of 2 Confs of 16 (recall I avoided pot 1v4 to lessen one-sided games).
To address this - I could have 2 Tiers of 16 (AIC/NFL merged).
Teams could play 5 from each of 2 pots (10-match schedule for all 32 teams).
Top 8 to AI QFs in both Tiers.
Tier 1 Bottom 8 in 4 playoffs / 4 losers go down.
Tier 2 SF 4 go up.

All told, I like your short NFL (separate) and wider AIC Tier 1 better, as it allows teams to 'ebb and flo' go up/down even within the same season.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1234 - 18/07/2018 23:18:49    2123645

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The Shara system is very interesting. It's effectively being used in Cavan for all championships this year - the only difference being that there are no seeding pots. There is an open draw after each round (4 rounds in total) to determine the pairings for the next round with a proviso that repeat pairings are disallowed.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 43 - 18/07/2018 23:55:46    2123655

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There was a suggestion a few years back in the hurling league of teams playing opponents of certain seeding. It didn't gain support however.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/hurling/2013/1012/480006-hurling/

"However, an alternative proposal was put forward that would see two groups of six 'graded' teams.

All teams in each group would play each other plus two teams from the same grade in the other group.

This would guarantee each team seven games in the regular season."

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 5442 - 19/07/2018 07:47:01    2123670

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I personally like a Shara system. It's just not especially familiar over here.

A modified Shara could work in both football and hurling.

In football every team play 4 games inclusive of their Provincial championship fixtures.

Week 1

4 Leinster and Ulster preliminary rounds
12 other Interprovincial ties involving 7 teams from Ulster, 5 from Leinster and all the Munster and Connacht teams.

Week 2

Provincial championship quarterfinals. 4 in each of Ulster and Leinster, 2 in each of Connacht and Munster.

4 Interprovincial ties. Involving 1 Ulster and 3 Leinster preliminary round teams and the 2 bye teams in each of Munster and Connacht.

Week 3

8 Provincial semifinals
8 Interprovincial games with the eliminated teams from the Provinces. 5 Ulster, 7 Leinster 2 each from Munster and Connacht.

Week 4

4 Provincial finals.
12 Interprovincial games 7 Ulster teams, 9 Leinster, 4 each from Connacht and Munster.

Onwards to some sort of All Ireland series.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2047 - 19/07/2018 11:54:50    2123721

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