National Forum

Do The Ends Justify The Means??

(Oldest Posts First)

Do teams have a duty to play entertaining football?? Or is winning all that matters?? I see
that Brolly and others have criticised Poacher and Carlow for their ultra defensive brand of football. Yet Carlow have produced some of their best results for many years. Likewise Fermanagh. I was at Clones to see Down outclassed by a Donegal side that produced an excellent brand of free flowing football under Declan Bonner. They are unrecognisable from the teams of Jim McGuinness and Rory Gallagher. Yet the more defensive style delivered Donegal an All Ireland. Down fans would you welcome Steven Poacher being included in future management teams if he delivered results even with the trade off of ultra defensive football??
I ask this in the context of falling Ulster GAA attendances. While price is certainly a big factor in this maybe falling attendances are also due to the product not being up to scratch??

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1617 - 15/06/2018 11:13:12    2111761

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Do teams have a duty to play entertaining football?? Or is winning all that matters?? I see
that Brolly and others have criticised Poacher and Carlow for their ultra defensive brand of football. Yet Carlow have produced some of their best results for many years. Likewise Fermanagh. I was at Clones to see Down outclassed by a Donegal side that produced an excellent brand of free flowing football under Declan Bonner. They are unrecognisable from the teams of Jim McGuinness and Rory Gallagher. Yet the more defensive style delivered Donegal an All Ireland. Down fans would you welcome Steven Poacher being included in future management teams if he delivered results even with the trade off of ultra defensive football??
I ask this in the context of falling Ulster GAA attendances. While price is certainly a big factor in this maybe falling attendances are also due to the product not being up to scratch??"
As a Fermanagh man I can honestly say that the answer is YES!!!! I would take a 1-0 win if it meant we got an ulster title.

On a different note i'm sick to my back teeth of this crap about modern football. Has anyone ever looked at the scores from 20/30 years ago? 94 Leitrim won the Connacht title after playing in two games that produced the following score lines

Leitrim 9 - 1-6 Galway
Leitrim 12 - 2-4 Mayo

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 15/06/2018 11:34:07    2111784

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Do teams have a duty to play entertaining football?? Or is winning all that matters?? I see
that Brolly and others have criticised Poacher and Carlow for their ultra defensive brand of football. Yet Carlow have produced some of their best results for many years. Likewise Fermanagh. I was at Clones to see Down outclassed by a Donegal side that produced an excellent brand of free flowing football under Declan Bonner. They are unrecognisable from the teams of Jim McGuinness and Rory Gallagher. Yet the more defensive style delivered Donegal an All Ireland. Down fans would you welcome Steven Poacher being included in future management teams if he delivered results even with the trade off of ultra defensive football??
I ask this in the context of falling Ulster GAA attendances. While price is certainly a big factor in this maybe falling attendances are also due to the product not being up to scratch??"
Aye football has changed over the last few years, before it was a skill based game where now you need 20 athletes that can run hard and fast for 70 odd minutes and that can play in a rigid system and then teach them how to kick score and oh the big one is hand pass.

In fairness we're still trying to hold on to our values that made us the most successful county in Ireland but the allirelands have dried up now so unfortunately we'll have to change or get left behind .

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 15/06/2018 11:39:17    2111791

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Replying To REDANDBLACK30:  "Do teams have a duty to play entertaining football?? Or is winning all that matters?? I see
that Brolly and others have criticised Poacher and Carlow for their ultra defensive brand of football. Yet Carlow have produced some of their best results for many years. Likewise Fermanagh. I was at Clones to see Down outclassed by a Donegal side that produced an excellent brand of free flowing football under Declan Bonner. They are unrecognisable from the teams of Jim McGuinness and Rory Gallagher. Yet the more defensive style delivered Donegal an All Ireland. Down fans would you welcome Steven Poacher being included in future management teams if he delivered results even with the trade off of ultra defensive football??
I ask this in the context of falling Ulster GAA attendances. While price is certainly a big factor in this maybe falling attendances are also due to the product not being up to scratch??"
This shouldn't be as big a talking point as it currently is, in my opinion.

In soccer, if a smaller team comes up against top opposition, they are fully expected to sit tight, keep their shape, and try nick a goal on the counter.

It makes perfect sense for Carlow and Fermanagh to deploy these tactics, yet in gaelic football it is still up for debate. I would consider Donegal to be in a higher tier in terms of strength/quality so it makes sense for them to take the initiative as they are doing.

I would also like to refute the prevailing narrative that Donegal's All-Ireland winning team was based on the 'blanket defence'. Although they clearly defended as a team and in numbers, they racked up scores of

1-16 v Cavan
2-13 v Derry
0-12 v Tyrone
2-18 v Down
1-12 v Kerry
0-16 v Cork
2-11 v Mayo

Hardly the stuff of an ultra defensive team. Swashbuckling was how I saw it :). Not to mention (any excuse to mention) the 3-14 v Dublin two years later.

The idea that Donegal were, up until this year, a dour, blanket-defending side stems wholly from that one god-awful semi-final v Dublin in 2011.
The pundits were justified in their criticism as it was awful to watch, but I think Donegal (and Jim) were justified for taking that approach, as it announced Donegal were coming to dine at the top table, invited or not.

Special K (Louth) - Posts: 114 - 15/06/2018 11:46:09    2111795

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Winning is all that matters.

Carlow were fine when they played nice football and never won a match.

Strange they are now met with such negativity after their best Leinster Campaign in years.

I map attendance with hope. Where there's hope there's interest. Where there's interest there attendance, regardless of the style being served up.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 15/06/2018 11:49:41    2111797

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My main concern now with all these teams playing this way is how are RTE going to call out Tyrone..... the masses have finally caught on that every team from West to East to south to North are playing defensive football.

cacsmckilly (Tyrone) - Posts: 1294 - 15/06/2018 12:00:10    2111804

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Donegal are a good example. Bullied and beaten in Ulster over 10/15 years they came up with a system that changed them into winners. I enjoyed watching Donegal 2012-2014 overcome teams they previously may have lost to. As a Tyrone fan I had to accept that Donegal had the measure of Tyrone 2011-2015 but that made the Ulster Final win of 2016 all the sweeter to win.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 15/06/2018 12:03:43    2111808

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Replying To Special K:  "This shouldn't be as big a talking point as it currently is, in my opinion.

In soccer, if a smaller team comes up against top opposition, they are fully expected to sit tight, keep their shape, and try nick a goal on the counter.

It makes perfect sense for Carlow and Fermanagh to deploy these tactics, yet in gaelic football it is still up for debate. I would consider Donegal to be in a higher tier in terms of strength/quality so it makes sense for them to take the initiative as they are doing.

I would also like to refute the prevailing narrative that Donegal's All-Ireland winning team was based on the 'blanket defence'. Although they clearly defended as a team and in numbers, they racked up scores of

1-16 v Cavan
2-13 v Derry
0-12 v Tyrone
2-18 v Down
1-12 v Kerry
0-16 v Cork
2-11 v Mayo

Hardly the stuff of an ultra defensive team. Swashbuckling was how I saw it :). Not to mention (any excuse to mention) the 3-14 v Dublin two years later.

The idea that Donegal were, up until this year, a dour, blanket-defending side stems wholly from that one god-awful semi-final v Dublin in 2011.
The pundits were justified in their criticism as it was awful to watch, but I think Donegal (and Jim) were justified for taking that approach, as it announced Donegal were coming to dine at the top table, invited or not."
Totally agree, you would swear Donegal scraped through 8 points to 7 in every game that year. They had a perfect combination. People praising their style of play should wait until they have played somebody decent.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7892 - 15/06/2018 12:08:48    2111810

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Aye football has changed over the last few years, before it was a skill based game where now you need 20 athletes that can run hard and fast for 70 odd minutes and that can play in a rigid system and then teach them how to kick score and oh the big one is hand pass.

In fairness we're still trying to hold on to our values that made us the most successful county in Ireland but the allirelands have dried up now so unfortunately we'll have to change or get left behind ."
Kingdom you are a funny man, your last All Ireland in 2014 was won playing some of the most dour football ever seen in Croke Park. Kerry had no problem at all adjusting their style that day & fair play it did the job.

But to come on here trying to make out that only now are ye considering pragmatism over pure footballing ideals is eye watering stuff.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 15/06/2018 12:20:48    2111815

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I think Gaelic football has progressed into a more technical game than what it used to be before. Thus it has become more entertaining and more intriguing.

Regarding the means, everyone knows a good team that goes man to man will likely come up short against weaker opposition which is defending in numbers and attacking at pace.

A bad team who is playing man to man will get absolutely trounced against a good side playing in the "modern way" and this experience will certainly not be attractive for the beaten side and their supporters.

It is not possible to win man to man. Dublin did not beat Tyrone last year going man to man. They attacked with such sweet movement and quality that they undid Tyrone's packed defence, and outdid Tyrone's counterattack play by defending in numbers as well.

Managers and teams have to play smart. Its more chess like than before so I disagree that football is less entertaining, its just different now.

cacsmckilly (Tyrone) - Posts: 1294 - 15/06/2018 12:24:39    2111816

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In fairness we're still trying to hold on to our values that made us the most successful county in Ireland but the allirelands have dried up now so unfortunately we'll have to change or get left behind .
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 7158 - 15/06/2018 11:39:17

Kerry have always stuck to their values which is why they are the most successful county.

Their values have always been that winning is all that matters, nothing about the right way to play.

Kerry have adapted to every change in style of play in order to be successful. They've even been accused of killing the skills of the game themselves in the 70s with their reliance on the handpass.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13707 - 15/06/2018 12:28:37    2111818

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Replying To cacsmckilly:  "My main concern now with all these teams playing this way is how are RTE going to call out Tyrone..... the masses have finally caught on that every team from West to East to south to North are playing defensive football."
I can't watch Brolly, Spillane, O'Rourke and co anymore, they are so out of touch with the modern game, they don't analyse games, they just rant.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1114 - 15/06/2018 12:43:32    2111825

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The only question that matters is did I leave the jersey in a better state than when I first got it. For a county like Carlow or Fermanagh then getting any result at all can provide interest and a boost locally that can be built on. For bigger sides the aim should be to inspire kids within the county and to do this you need to play with style. Nobody here in their garden as a kid dreamt of being a corner forward back playing in a blanket defence. What kid in Down will be inspired to play the game when they have no Linden, McCartan, Coulter or Clarke to watch. Harrison can play but is so isolated and strangled by covering defenders he rarely gets to shine. That's why attendances are falling, other than McManus and some Donegal forwards what attackers in the Ulster championship would make the starting 15 of the best team from their county over the past 30 years? I'd say very very few. Talented forwards are not coming through in many counties and that is a huge worry.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 15/06/2018 12:47:59    2111830

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Replying To Soma:  "The only question that matters is did I leave the jersey in a better state than when I first got it. For a county like Carlow or Fermanagh then getting any result at all can provide interest and a boost locally that can be built on. For bigger sides the aim should be to inspire kids within the county and to do this you need to play with style. Nobody here in their garden as a kid dreamt of being a corner forward back playing in a blanket defence. What kid in Down will be inspired to play the game when they have no Linden, McCartan, Coulter or Clarke to watch. Harrison can play but is so isolated and strangled by covering defenders he rarely gets to shine. That's why attendances are falling, other than McManus and some Donegal forwards what attackers in the Ulster championship would make the starting 15 of the best team from their county over the past 30 years? I'd say very very few. Talented forwards are not coming through in many counties and that is a huge worry."
That's a very good post.

I agree with it all. I do love this Dublin team, they have a great style about what they do.

They have a system and are organized and defend with numbers, but they do attack with style and swagger in numbers and while allowing their players like O'Callaghan, Mannion, McCarthy to play and express themselves.

They go out to control and dominate games and it is such a refreshing approach.

It really annoyed me the Kerry approach to last years semifinal replay. It was very negative and you could tell that the game plan was completely alien to the players. Their spacing up front was terrible. It's particularly annoying because they have played some lovely positive football at times too. Against Cork last year they were fabulous with options up front at all times and great support from their wing backs. To see a team go from that to a negative, reactive approach really frustrates me. I just think it is counter productive too. A team like Kerry if though they are less strong than usual should never allow another team to dictate the game to them.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 16/06/2018 13:05:25    2112083

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