National Forum

Leinster Hurling Championship

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Replying To BliainanÁir:  "No obviously not! I was applying common sense to the situation and what happens in most sports when teams are level on points, scoring difference is looked at. Dare i mention rugby!! Ireland wouldn't have won the 2014 6 Nations Championship going by GAA logic. We were level on points with England however won on scoring differential. We lost to England in Twickenham that year so GAA common sense would have them champions.

GAA common sense will probably rejig the Leinster championship to accommodate Offaly in next year's Liam McCarthy and deny Carlow and Westmeath their opportunity in the top tier.Common sense dictates that Offaly are a 'traditional' hurling power and Westmeath and Carlow really don't belong in the top tier.

This is not a diatribe against Offaly, a county who have overachieved in both codes.Just weird gaa thinking. Counties should be in a competitions on their current merits. Not nostalgia for the past."
Agree with your last paragraph but with regard to the qualification system, imo head to head is the best method for Leinster hurling. Otherwise, the weakest team would be targeted by all other teams for a hammering -- Offaly this year, Carlow/Westmeath next year. The team playing them 2nd, 3rd and 4th would be more likely to put up the big scores since the weakest team wouldn't have the resources to be competitive week after week.
Galway fielded a somewhat experimental team yesterday and picked some established players out of position. It would be quite unfair in the circumstances if Dublin qualified ahead of Wexford or Kilkenny having lost to both of them , simply because they hammered Offaly and beat an under motivated Galway.

Scoring differential works well in rugby and makes sense in that sport since they are professional and recovery time is built into the schedule. But just cos it's right for rugby doesn't mean it's the best fit for GAA

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1903 - 10/06/2018 10:41:12    2109299

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Great match between Kilkenny and Wexford but when you break it down, two average teams, can't see us putting it up to Galway. Cody got it spot on with the subs, but then he could start the same lads in the final and they'll probably be brutal.

That's the problem with this Kilkenny team compared to teams of the past, they're inconsistent and unreliable. The Kilkenny teams of the past, you knew exactly what you'd get. This team, sometimes they can put in a really good half hour performance in a match that makes you think "this team is going somewhere", then they might stink the place out in the next match.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 10/06/2018 10:51:29    2109310

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "Davy mustn't have been joking when he said he had bet his house on a Kilkenny win cod some of the things Wexford did in the 2nd half were baffling."
I'd say the schedule had a lot to do with it. It was their fourth week playing on the trot (they had their "rest" weekend in week 1) whereas KK had last weekend off

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1903 - 10/06/2018 10:55:08    2109311

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Great match between Kilkenny and Wexford but when you break it down, two average teams, can't see us putting it up to Galway. Cody got it spot on with the subs, but then he could start the same lads in the final and they'll probably be brutal.

That's the problem with this Kilkenny team compared to teams of the past, they're inconsistent and unreliable. The Kilkenny teams of the past, you knew exactly what you'd get. This team, sometimes they can put in a really good half hour performance in a match that makes you think "this team is going somewhere", then they might stink the place out in the next match."
i dont think either wexford or kilkenny are as far away from galway as any of the munster teams will prove to be.
nothing between any of about 7 or 8 teams imo.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 10/06/2018 12:30:10    2109353

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Replying To perfect10:  "2 great games of hurling,and a fraction of the fawning and hyperbole that there was after the cork limerick game last week"
Christ but you have some chip n your shoulder about Munster hurling.........simple question, how many scores in the Kilkenny v Wexford game were frees compared to the Cork v Limerick game? Both were excellent games in their own right but most neutrals would say that the quality of hurling was better in the Cork v Limerick game albeit that may have been due to the fact that the game seemed very 'tight' in Nowlan Park last night.......reality is there are three top class sides in Leinster at the minute which is great but all five in Munster are in that bracket, that's reality and as a consequence makes the Munster championship more competitive , you could have selected Wexford, kk, Galway to qualify on 1st May but three games in during Munster championship and anyone could still qualify with three draws already! Doesn't mean that Galway aren't the best team on current form or that Kilkenny weren't the greatest team of last 25 yrs and possibly ever but Munster is just a more even and as a consequence better championship in general.

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 10/06/2018 13:37:27    2109379

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Is the system flawed in the sense that a team going into their last round game has already qualified. However they can influence who else makes the play offs by trying or not trying.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2659 - 10/06/2018 13:48:14    2109382

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Replying To Canuck:  "Is the system flawed in the sense that a team going into their last round game has already qualified. However they can influence who else makes the play offs by trying or not trying."
Galway had already qualified and they couldn't influence who would make the playoffs so.....

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1903 - 10/06/2018 14:51:04    2109412

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Agree with your last paragraph but with regard to the qualification system, imo head to head is the best method for Leinster hurling. Otherwise, the weakest team would be targeted by all other teams for a hammering -- Offaly this year, Carlow/Westmeath next year. The team playing them 2nd, 3rd and 4th would be more likely to put up the big scores since the weakest team wouldn't have the resources to be competitive week after week.
Galway fielded a somewhat experimental team yesterday and picked some established players out of position. It would be quite unfair in the circumstances if Dublin qualified ahead of Wexford or Kilkenny having lost to both of them , simply because they hammered Offaly and beat an under motivated Galway.

Scoring differential works well in rugby and makes sense in that sport since they are professional and recovery time is built into the schedule. But just cos it's right for rugby doesn't mean it's the best fit for GAA"
I understand where you are coming from. But here's a few points to counter it.

Galway deserve the luxury of resting players having won their first three games. As we'll see with teams in the World Cup in Russia.

There are always advantages in group stages of competitions. Be it who you get at home or, in this round robin system, whether you play 4 weeks in a row and when you get a break and whether the team you play after it is on a low or has injuries.

The idea of protecting Offaly/Westmeath/Carlow from big beatings is admirable but these teams have taken bad beatings long before this system. Offaly beaten by 31pts by KK in 2005. The weakness of a team is not the problem of the other 4. Dublin in football dish out serious beatings to other counties. Kerry did the same to Clare last Sunday and not for score difference.

If Dublin beat Galway they would have earned their place. Losing to Wexford by a point in Wexford and would have probably held out against KK until Keaney got injured and Buckley came into the game for KK.

BliainanÁir (Laois) - Posts: 598 - 10/06/2018 14:57:12    2109414

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Galway to win Leinster. All Ireland is theirs to lose.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 10/06/2018 16:07:53    2109441

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Galway to win Leinster. All Ireland is theirs to lose.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 10/06/2018 16:08:20    2109442

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Great match between Kilkenny and Wexford but when you break it down, two average teams, can't see us putting it up to Galway. Cody got it spot on with the subs, but then he could start the same lads in the final and they'll probably be brutal.

That's the problem with this Kilkenny team compared to teams of the past, they're inconsistent and unreliable. The Kilkenny teams of the past, you knew exactly what you'd get. This team, sometimes they can put in a really good half hour performance in a match that makes you think "this team is going somewhere", then they might stink the place out in the next match."
see this is the problem with a lot of Kilkenny supporters talking about the past team forget about them that's gone ,get behind this team young lads in my book doing good ,league winners now in a leinster final so they are green big deal experience will bring consistency give them a chance to develop they will still trouble Galway.

northerncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 30 - 11/06/2018 22:15:54    2110275

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "I'd say the schedule had a lot to do with it. It was their fourth week playing on the trot (they had their "rest" weekend in week 1) whereas KK had last weekend off"
The way the fixtures were done meant the 4 teams who had to play for 4 weeks in a row all played a team coming in after a week off in their last game. That's crazy stuff altogether.

Kilkenny vs Wexford was deciding who was going to the Leinster final. Tipp vs Clare was a championship eliminator and Dublin vs Offaly was a relegation decider. Granted you couldn't see Offaly staying up had it being more equitable.

Wexford must feel the most hard done by of the 4. Tipp weren't good enough this year so a win over Clare would have only painted over the cracks. Good to see Horan acknowledging that it needs tweaking and he will make sure it is improved for next year.

Two groups of 6 is the logical answer for me and scrap the preliminary quarter final. Carlow and Westmeath won't go to the next level without plenty of games against the big boys.

Having an even number of teams means everyone plays on the same weeks and rests on the same weeks. Spread it out over 7 weeks. That's one extra week from the start of the Leinster group stages to the end of the Munster group stages this year.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 12/06/2018 05:30:39    2110354

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "The way the fixtures were done meant the 4 teams who had to play for 4 weeks in a row all played a team coming in after a week off in their last game. That's crazy stuff altogether.

Kilkenny vs Wexford was deciding who was going to the Leinster final. Tipp vs Clare was a championship eliminator and Dublin vs Offaly was a relegation decider. Granted you couldn't see Offaly staying up had it being more equitable.

Wexford must feel the most hard done by of the 4. Tipp weren't good enough this year so a win over Clare would have only painted over the cracks. Good to see Horan acknowledging that it needs tweaking and he will make sure it is improved for next year.

Two groups of 6 is the logical answer for me and scrap the preliminary quarter final. Carlow and Westmeath won't go to the next level without plenty of games against the big boys.

Having an even number of teams means everyone plays on the same weeks and rests on the same weeks. Spread it out over 7 weeks. That's one extra week from the start of the Leinster group stages to the end of the Munster group stages this year."
Don't agree, look at some of the beatings we got this year. I can't see Kerry and Carlow / Westmeath being anyway competitive. There is a 4 week break to the provincial finals. Make it 3 weeks and add a weeks rest for everyone. The reason the championship is so exciting is because there is something to lose in almost every game, adding another team who everyone will beat will take away from that. I still think play the provincial Championship off in 4 weeks using the knockout system and then start the group series for the all ireland.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/06/2018 10:08:29    2110406

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Replying To Faithfull:  "Don't agree, look at some of the beatings we got this year. I can't see Kerry and Carlow / Westmeath being anyway competitive. There is a 4 week break to the provincial finals. Make it 3 weeks and add a weeks rest for everyone. The reason the championship is so exciting is because there is something to lose in almost every game, adding another team who everyone will beat will take away from that. I still think play the provincial Championship off in 4 weeks using the knockout system and then start the group series for the all ireland."
How will Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry, Antrim, Laois improve without being exposed to playing the big teams.

Yes they might take some beatings but as long as they improve that's the most important thing. It will help promote the games in those counties if you have the likes of Kilkenny coming to town.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 12/06/2018 17:40:54    2110639

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "How will Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath, Kerry, Antrim, Laois improve without being exposed to playing the big teams.

Yes they might take some beatings but as long as they improve that's the most important thing. It will help promote the games in those counties if you have the likes of Kilkenny coming to town."
All Counties would improve by putting the structures in place from Underage. Sending retired players to schools and setting up coaching camps. I wouldn't put teams straight into the deep end. An idea for the GAA would maybe allow Kerry as a team play in the Cork Senior League. Carlow play in Kilkenny, Laois in Tipperary etc. They would have 5 or 6 tough games which would bring them on leaps and bounds.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 13/06/2018 09:40:50    2110884

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Replying To Faithfull:  "All Counties would improve by putting the structures in place from Underage. Sending retired players to schools and setting up coaching camps. I wouldn't put teams straight into the deep end. An idea for the GAA would maybe allow Kerry as a team play in the Cork Senior League. Carlow play in Kilkenny, Laois in Tipperary etc. They would have 5 or 6 tough games which would bring them on leaps and bounds."
Carlow clubs already play in Kilkenny leagues and I think some of the Kerry ones play in the Munster club leagues which is a good idea.
Roscommon clubs play in Galway.

There's less of a gap at club level IMO and that's where development needs to start, problem is up North we're geographically isolated from the hurling heartlands.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 13/06/2018 12:08:22    2110979

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I thought this article was very good, the margins are so tight in these games. I put it on the Wexford forum but I think you folks would like it too Kilkenny v Wexford: Battle of Freetakers

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 13/06/2018 16:05:36    2111126

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Replying To bricktop:  "Carlow clubs already play in Kilkenny leagues and I think some of the Kerry ones play in the Munster club leagues which is a good idea.
Roscommon clubs play in Galway.

There's less of a gap at club level IMO and that's where development needs to start, problem is up North we're geographically isolated from the hurling heartlands."
I agree with everything the two of you are saying about Kerry, Carlow and Laois and underage structures.

I don't see those teams or Westmeath/Antrim every becoming seriously contenders without proper exposure at the elite level. Yes they will probably suffer some bad defeats initially but if they stick with it they can come back stronger and learn from it.

Clare got hammered by Tipp in 1993 and Limerick in 1995. By 1998 they had 2 All-Irelands and 3 Munster titles.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 13/06/2018 16:10:56    2111132

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "I agree with everything the two of you are saying about Kerry, Carlow and Laois and underage structures.

I don't see those teams or Westmeath/Antrim every becoming seriously contenders without proper exposure at the elite level. Yes they will probably suffer some bad defeats initially but if they stick with it they can come back stronger and learn from it.

Clare got hammered by Tipp in 1993 and Limerick in 1995. By 1998 they had 2 All-Irelands and 3 Munster titles."
A Celtic Challenge type competition is key at u20/21 to support this though........Kerry play Down in three weeks in All Ireland u21 B, two if the best teams in the competition meeting in 1st round with loser finished for the year.....not much development there, genuinely believe that the u20/21 along with minor championships need to mirror the senior in hurling particularly in terms of Mc Donagh and Ring counties they need games for their young players to develop, straight knock out competitions add no true value for these age groups......

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 14/06/2018 00:06:49    2111351

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "I agree with everything the two of you are saying about Kerry, Carlow and Laois and underage structures.

I don't see those teams or Westmeath/Antrim every becoming seriously contenders without proper exposure at the elite level. Yes they will probably suffer some bad defeats initially but if they stick with it they can come back stronger and learn from it.

Clare got hammered by Tipp in 1993 and Limerick in 1995. By 1998 they had 2 All-Irelands and 3 Munster titles."
Typo, that should read 94 by Limerick.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 14/06/2018 02:13:40    2111359

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