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I'd get rid of Leinster and Munster, neither are fit for purpose and create unnatural advantages.
Amalgamate them both and have a Leinster/Munster Provinal Championship.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/04/2018 15:09:15
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Replying To 81DLSAM: "Why not a fair and completely open straight knock out FA cup style championship!
32 -16 - 8 - 4 - final... Forget qualifiers/super 8s/champions league etc..
Straight knock out, intense meaningful games with realistic opportunities for weaker teams to progress to Croke Park Quarter Finals!! Keep league and make even provincial competitions but finish season off with this championship!!
I've been advocating this for years but never gains traction.." You and me both. Will never happen while it is a money focused organisation - the thought of a dog having it's day and sending a big team packing would give those in the higher echelons night terrors!
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 29/04/2018 15:11:27
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Replying To royaldunne: " Replying To omahant: "[quote=Whammo86: "[quote=no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." I think it is very good. It'd be exciting and easily scheduled."
Did I miss something ? - this is a repackaging of Eugene McGee's 4x8 - with a few marginal changes to the drab non-Ulster regions; a few bells and whistles, like Prov Final 8 get two chances; and the addition of the POSe Cup.
I prefer my '2 + 6' - Have a Prov Champs Playoff round - 2 winners to KO Rd 4 (AI QFs), 2 losers to 12-team KO Rd 3 - 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2, and all 24 others to Rd 1 (8x3 team groups, 2 advance from each).
Dead rubbers are impossible in 3-team groups, if the loser in the 1st group match plays again in the 3rd (when 2 of 3 advance).
After you get to Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd 24 - all need 6 wins for AI - via Front Door, Back Door or any combo of the two.
It's so simple - it actually works !"]Very well and thought out post. And it actually works"]Thanks and I should have said that starting with the Prov SF 16 and 1st Rd Quls 24 (incl 8 SF losers), all need 6 wins to claim Sam by any combo of the two streams. This is as good as it gets - within the current straight jacket.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 29/04/2018 16:35:26
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Replying To supersub15: "I'm lucky I'm not the angry type, 'cos I'm sure you meant lose game 3 to Louth/ Carlow OR Kildare." I did say " might ". It was a hypothetical situation.
Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 765 - 29/04/2018 16:36:29
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Replying To no.14: "Gaelic sports are inherently unfair, primarily due to population distribution. But that's sport, most are unfair in some aspect.
The best you can do is try to even the playing field. Gaelic sports is about championship, we all know and love that. But it's hard to think of any championship as completely lopsided as the current Provincial-to-All Ireland football structure.
If Carlow beat Louth they're still 2 games from a Leinster final. They have to win 7 games to win an AI. Roscommon win 1 game and they're straight into a Connaught final (5 games to win AI). This is not right. There are enough disadvantages in our games without the competition structure adding further disadvantages. Success breeds success, interest and participation - it's not fair that some teams start so much closer to success every year than others.
This brings me to the point of this post.
Keep the provincial championships, but play them instead of the early-year Dr.McKenna type cup competitions that nobody cares about. College teams should not participate in these.
The All Ireland competition should remain regional in early stages - local rivalries are great! - but do it roughly geographically instead of by province - 8 teams in each region.
Northern Championship - Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Tyrone
Western Championship - Mayo, Galway, Sligo, Cavan, Roscommon, Longford, Leitrim, London/NY
Eastern Championship - Louth, Meath, Dublin, Wicklow, Laois, Offaly, Kildare, Westmeath
Southern Championship - Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Clare, Tipp, Limerick, Carlow
- Regional ch'ships start at QF stage. Draw seeded based on league position that year. Top 4 seeds drawn against bottom 4. Lower seeded teams have home advantage.
- 4 Winners progress to regional semi finals & final. Winner & Runner Up of final progress to All Ireland Quarter Finals. Regional winners have AI QF home advantage. Semis in Croker and final obviously.
- The 4 losers of each region QFs go into the Paidi O'Se Cup. Open draw of 16 teams, knockout. Semis and final played in Croke Park - final on the Saturday eve of All Ireland weekend. Competition to get equal promotion and coverage as All Ireland. Winning squad gets large cash/incentive prize (maybe play AI winners abroad on holiday).
- Ch'ships are run off 13 weeks from start of May. 2 weeks to prepare after club April, then max 6 games in 11 weeks. Not unreasonable at all, & crucially it's the same criteria for all teams.
Advantages
- All teams get chance to win All Ireland every year
- All teams get still get minimum 2 ch'ship games, max of 6. All must play 6 to win AI, or 5 to win the P.OSe.
- Lower seeded teams get a big home game every year (help improve interest, participation, sponsorship, atmosphere)
- Avoids group format & meaningless games - no team can lose 2 games and still win something.
- Still getting plenty big games in Croke Park (Dublin home games, Eastern Final, then 4 semis & 2 finals)
- All Ireland Final Day becomes All Ireland Final Weekend (all the additional sponsorship/promotion/tourism you can generate off that)
- Format can be easily replicated at minor. More young players get chance to win something / play at Croker.
- Retains club April and club access to players from start of August (earlier if knocked out) to end October.
Disadvantages
There will be heavy defeats in early round. But this is unavoidable/natural in any competition structure.
I can't see many problems with it honestly." There is something to be said for a Tier One 16 and a Tier Two 16 - but in your plan 4th-ranked Muns and Lein QF winners ontinues on the Sam road, while Ulster's stronger 5th-ranked (best QF loser) chases Paudi.
Your 4x8 is nice symmetrically, but still unbalanced for the 16/16 split from a quality view point.
I think initially keeping the regions while allowing losers to come through an equitable national stream to chase Sam ot Paudi (rename the Qualifiers if you must) is the way to go.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 29/04/2018 16:54:20
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Replying To TheUsername: "I'd get rid of Leinster and Munster, neither are fit for purpose and create unnatural advantages.
Amalgamate them both and have a Leinster/Munster Provinal Championship." Are you honestly saying that canaught is dit for purpose ffs.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 29/04/2018 19:50:27
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Replying To royaldunne: "Are you honestly saying that canaught is dit for purpose ffs." Yep.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/04/2018 20:00:30
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Replying To royaldunne: "Are you honestly saying that canaught is dit for purpose ffs." Biggest game of this years championship before the Super 8s will be next Sunday
BlastCalyle (Mayo) - Posts: 206 - 04/05/2018 13:40:39
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Replying To BlastCalyle: "Biggest game of this years championship before the Super 8s will be next Sunday" Don't forget the provincial finals, Monaghan v Tyrone, dl v cavan outa the top of my head
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 07/05/2018 16:35:36
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Replying To TheUsername: "I'd get rid of Leinster and Munster, neither are fit for purpose and create unnatural advantages.
Amalgamate them both and have a Leinster/Munster Provinal Championship." How does it create anymore of an unnatural advantage than connaught? Roscommon have to beat leitrim to reach the final, kildare have to beat louth/carlow then westmeath/wexford/laois. Winner of tipp cork into the final. Even winner of Donegal Cavan should easily make the Ulster final even if they've more games. Connaught have 3 very good teams but only 2 games of note. This is as much a knee-jerk reaction as splitting Dublin in two argument. 2 years ago Clare beat roscommon in the qualifiers and tipp beat Galway in the 1/4 final. Very short sighted approach
tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 07/05/2018 19:42:27
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Unfairness of lopsided Provs could be neurtralised - Extend Front Door by ONE rd - Champs Playoff Rd - 2 winners to AI QFs (revert to KO).
Extend 1st Rd Qualifiers by ONE match per team -
each current 1st Rd Qual PAIRING draws a Prov SF loser as well - forming 8x3 groups.
Top 2 each group and 4 Prov Final losers to 20-team KO Rd 2.
10 Rd 2 winners join 2 Champs Playoff losers in 12-team KO Rd 3.
6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI KO QFs.
Quals streamlined - all teams have a fair shot - wide access to AI Last 24 (incl Qual Rd 2).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 14/05/2018 05:52:31
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How about this for one lads, think it would make the provincials much more interesting and add an extra dimension to the championship. There would even be more top quality games. So many teams would think they would have a real chance of winning silverware.
So take the provincial championships as they are now in 2018, likely winners are: Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Tyrone.
For 2019 these teams don't play in the province they go into their own separate group and fight it out for a place in the semi finals.
This would leave teams in provincial with a chance to win it. The 2019 provincial winners will like Dublin, Kerry Galway and Tyrone the previous year go into there separate group for two semi final spots the following year while the 4 teams above (2018 winners) back into their provincials.
You would then have the provincial winners and qualifiers battle for the last two semi final spots
Imagine this you would have teams like Kildare, Laois, Meath, Longford having a real chance in Leinster.
Would it take away from the achievement by not having Dublin in it , not one bit as one of them will not be in it the following year when say Dublin win themselves.
It would also mean the Dubs and Kerry would have competitive matches to gain a place in the semis instead of trimming weaker oppositions.
Meathmadlad (Meath) - Posts: 7 - 15/05/2018 21:45:42
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There will never be a fair championship unfortunately.
Not many people want it but a 2 tier system is the only way.
My opinion is based on the league, div 1 and div 2 teams in 4 groups of 4 roundrobin and 1st and 2nd in each group go into the knock out phase then and and exact same for the div 3 and 4 teams for the 2nd competition but the 2nd competition taken serious by the gaa and there quarter finals ,semi finals final etc would be a double header in croke park with the first competition ,its not ideal coz everyone wants to be in the main competition but being realistic a system like this would give a lot of the so called weaker counties a platform for the team and the fans to have long summers playing highly compepitive football against teams at their own level and get games in croke park which they wouldn't normally get ,young kids from them counties would see their teams winning big games in croke park and aspire more to play for their county and not be put off because all they see every summer is their county play 2 games and get destroyed in both games ,more money would be made by them counties from tv, sponsorship etc when playing long summers of football and would place a lot more emphasis of league football to have a place as a seed team etc..
I'm sure there is plenty of flaws in that idea but that's all it is an idea something like that may be the way forward
Keep the provincials most of them can be done and dusted within a month.
Galwayjoe86 (Galway) - Posts: 258 - 15/05/2018 22:21:22
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Replying To Galwayjoe86: "There will never be a fair championship unfortunately.
Not many people want it but a 2 tier system is the only way.
My opinion is based on the league, div 1 and div 2 teams in 4 groups of 4 roundrobin and 1st and 2nd in each group go into the knock out phase then and and exact same for the div 3 and 4 teams for the 2nd competition but the 2nd competition taken serious by the gaa and there quarter finals ,semi finals final etc would be a double header in croke park with the first competition ,its not ideal coz everyone wants to be in the main competition but being realistic a system like this would give a lot of the so called weaker counties a platform for the team and the fans to have long summers playing highly compepitive football against teams at their own level and get games in croke park which they wouldn't normally get ,young kids from them counties would see their teams winning big games in croke park and aspire more to play for their county and not be put off because all they see every summer is their county play 2 games and get destroyed in both games ,more money would be made by them counties from tv, sponsorship etc when playing long summers of football and would place a lot more emphasis of league football to have a place as a seed team etc..
I'm sure there is plenty of flaws in that idea but that's all it is an idea something like that may be the way forward
Keep the provincials most of them can be done and dusted within a month." I don't want to put a dampener on things because in theory this sounds like a very good proposal.
The problem is that realistically the second tier competition wouldn't be marketed properly or given the same attention as the main competition.
Just look at the Joe McDonagh cup.
Next to no coverage of its first round despite there not even being Leinster or Munster championship games that weekend.
Instead of a tiered championship I think the league has to be played alongside the Provincial championships.
A combination of both get used to seed a pretty simple All Ireland series. Roughly division 3 v division 4 in round 1, division 2 teams getting a bye to round 2 and division 1 teams get a bye to round 3. Provincial champions not in division 1 can earn a bye into round 3 and Provincial runners up from division 3 or 4 can earn a bye into round 2. The displaced teams are decided by league positions.
The League and Provincial championships are played from March to July with breaks for club action. Club interruptions are ok because individual games aren't quite as high stakes as Provincial championship games are now.
The league takes greater precedence, the Provincials are still linked to the All Ireland. A division 4 is only 2 games from a marquee All Ireland last 16 game versus a top team.
The All Ireland is played off in 6 rounds over 9 weeks in August and September. Not club interruptions here.
No team is out until the beginning of August.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 15/05/2018 22:57:16
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't want to put a dampener on things because in theory this sounds like a very good proposal.
The problem is that realistically the second tier competition wouldn't be marketed properly or given the same attention as the main competition.
Just look at the Joe McDonagh cup.
Next to no coverage of its first round despite there not even being Leinster or Munster championship games that weekend.
Instead of a tiered championship I think the league has to be played alongside the Provincial championships.
A combination of both get used to seed a pretty simple All Ireland series. Roughly division 3 v division 4 in round 1, division 2 teams getting a bye to round 2 and division 1 teams get a bye to round 3. Provincial champions not in division 1 can earn a bye into round 3 and Provincial runners up from division 3 or 4 can earn a bye into round 2. The displaced teams are decided by league positions.
The League and Provincial championships are played from March to July with breaks for club action. Club interruptions are ok because individual games aren't quite as high stakes as Provincial championship games are now.
The league takes greater precedence, the Provincials are still linked to the All Ireland. A division 4 is only 2 games from a marquee All Ireland last 16 game versus a top team.
The All Ireland is played off in 6 rounds over 9 weeks in August and September. Not club interruptions here.
No team is out until the beginning of August." That's not a bad idea either basically anything that will give teams more games and long summers is a good thing and can only benefit them and give their games a good summer going to games.
I agree what you say about the second tier competition not marketed the way it should coz that's what probably would happen unfortunately but in an ideal world if the gaa did market it properly and show it as much respect as the main one and even give the rights to it to tg4 tv3 or something like that then it could be a winner and lots of counties could get behind it but one thing for sure is nothing has changed at the moment the super8s has been brought it but that won't solve any issues for the counties who have no real chance of getting that far
Galwayjoe86 (Galway) - Posts: 258 - 15/05/2018 23:27:21
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Replying To Galwayjoe86: "That's not a bad idea either basically anything that will give teams more games and long summers is a good thing and can only benefit them and give their games a good summer going to games.
I agree what you say about the second tier competition not marketed the way it should coz that's what probably would happen unfortunately but in an ideal world if the gaa did market it properly and show it as much respect as the main one and even give the rights to it to tg4 tv3 or something like that then it could be a winner and lots of counties could get behind it but one thing for sure is nothing has changed at the moment the super8s has been brought it but that won't solve any issues for the counties who have no real chance of getting that far" Meant to say give their fans a good summer going to games
Galwayjoe86 (Galway) - Posts: 258 - 15/05/2018 23:39:13
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Replying To Meathmadlad: "How about this for one lads, think it would make the provincials much more interesting and add an extra dimension to the championship. There would even be more top quality games. So many teams would think they would have a real chance of winning silverware.
So take the provincial championships as they are now in 2018, likely winners are: Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Tyrone.
For 2019 these teams don't play in the province they go into their own separate group and fight it out for a place in the semi finals.
This would leave teams in provincial with a chance to win it. The 2019 provincial winners will like Dublin, Kerry Galway and Tyrone the previous year go into there separate group for two semi final spots the following year while the 4 teams above (2018 winners) back into their provincials.
You would then have the provincial winners and qualifiers battle for the last two semi final spots
Imagine this you would have teams like Kildare, Laois, Meath, Longford having a real chance in Leinster.
Would it take away from the achievement by not having Dublin in it , not one bit as one of them will not be in it the following year when say Dublin win themselves.
It would also mean the Dubs and Kerry would have competitive matches to gain a place in the semis instead of trimming weaker oppositions." I think if any county was to win a provincial title in leinster within dublin be allowed compete would totally devalue the competition. Plus people complain about the unfairness of the current championship but with your idea you would have 4 counties getting a bye to the all ireland quarter finals. Plus the leinster winners without the dubs would be weaker then the other provincial winners . The likes of dublin and kerry could complain about been not allowed to compete for there provincial silverware every second year.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 16/05/2018 07:17:41
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I like Wham's idea - attractive league games before the AI KO Rd of 16. I presume AI entry rd is decided after promo/ relag issues are decided ?
Also, would 3 up/ 3 down be too much or sufficient seeding incentive ?
If the NFL is not merged with the AIC, then I'd like a Blockbuster AIC launch with a 'Super EighTEEN' -
NFL Top 14, prior 2 Div 3 promo and prior 2 POSe Finalists - 6 groups of 3 playing once - Interprov Open Draw - Top 2 in each plus 4 Prov Champs (in parallel) to AI KO Rd of 16 (bye to Last 8 for qualifying twice).
POSe - 4x3 (once) and 1x2 (2 legs).
3 best 2nds from 4x3 and 5 winners to POSe QFs.
Next yr = Final 2 to Super 18, while all 14 pursue Sam via Provs as well.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 16/05/2018 11:50:29
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Replying To Galwayjoe86: "That's not a bad idea either basically anything that will give teams more games and long summers is a good thing and can only benefit them and give their games a good summer going to games.
I agree what you say about the second tier competition not marketed the way it should coz that's what probably would happen unfortunately but in an ideal world if the gaa did market it properly and show it as much respect as the main one and even give the rights to it to tg4 tv3 or something like that then it could be a winner and lots of counties could get behind it but one thing for sure is nothing has changed at the moment the super8s has been brought it but that won't solve any issues for the counties who have no real chance of getting that far" Yes 100%
I think the big thing when guys discuss new formats they forget about it has to be for the players.
The toughest thing for weaker counties is getting their best team out. It's not surprising either.
In weaker counties their big competition is played in February and March and then they've a 2 or maybe 3 big days to look forward to.
No wonder many don't bother every season.
The super 8 whilst is probably going to be exciting in its own right has probably worsened things for weaker counties.
For Antrim our season is very likely over in June.
They say it's to allow time for the club but I don't really think that's whats at play here.
There's loads of time from Club football in weaker counties as is. It's the Dublin's and Mayos who struggle to get championships finished.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 16/05/2018 20:32:59
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Yet another tournament idea - a better variation of the GPA 8x4 -
32 counties given same seeding as their NFL div.
Draw pair of 1st seeds to 'groups' A1, B1, A2 & B2.
Draw pair of 4th seeds to 'pools' A3, B3, A4 & B4.
Complete each 4-team set with a 2nd & 3rd seed.
Teams play 4 'A v B' games v 'other group/pool, with same number.'
Top 3 in 4 groups to AI KO Rd of 16, after top 2 in 4 pools play 'head-to-head' playoffs (i.e. 1st v 2nd in pools A3, B3, A4 & B4, respectively), producing 4 winners earning 4 Rd of 16 berths.
AI QFs incl [1st A1 or team A4] v [2nd or 3rd in A1]; and [1st in A2 or team A3] v [2nd or 3rd in A2].
'A QF' winners meet in one AI SF; the 'B sides' form a similar schedule producing the other AI Finalist.
After 64 group/pool matches and 19 AI KO games, the AI Final is the only pairing that could repeat (or, as is likely, that Final could be non repeat as well).
For the next year - prior year 'AI Last 16' drawn to the two '4 v 4, groups'; also for pairing variety, certain groups/pools switch (B1 for A2; B3 for A4).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 20/05/2018 01:18:47
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