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Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" I see. So it has nothing to do with having some the best footballers I've ever had the pleasure to watch and I've seen them all over the last 50yrs. In my opinion the great Dublin team of the 70s would only have about three or four starting with the present set up.
dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 03/04/2018 19:25:39
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Replying To Whammo86: "New York and Leitrim are total gimmes.
Kildares route this year is particularly easy for Leinster and it's still harder than your 2016 route which was your hardest in the last 3 years.
Connacht is also now at its strongest for a long time, Leinster is at its weakest. You lads had it even better 10 years ago on average.
Your argument is so outrageous you've got me sideing with Royaldunne :)" First time for everything. Although last time Kildare and Westmeath played in Croke Park in lsf Westmeath won and that was only a couple years ago. So it's hardly comparable to Sligo or New York
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 03/04/2018 19:28:23
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Replying To dubarra: " Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" I see. So it has nothing to do with having some the best footballers I've ever had the pleasure to watch and I've seen them all over the last 50yrs. In my opinion the great Dublin team of the 70s would only have about three or four starting with the present set up."
Aul thehermit there failed to mention that most Kerry fans have little or no faith in their current manager.
That's sort of a big advantage in our favour he failed to mention.
We have Jim Gavin. They have a man they don't rate...
He missed that one.
He also missed that despite the home advantage thing.. Dublin have by far and away the best away record in the country. Last loss was in 2015 away to Kerry.. so Dublin have had plenty of wins away from home.
You don't get to 6 NFL Div 1 finals on the bounce with a poor away record. :)
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 03/04/2018 20:25:25
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Replying To Gleebo: "Flip side is that the three strongest teams in Connacht would more than likely beat anyone in Leinster barring Dublin, of course. Leinster just has more weak sides in their championship than Connacht, take a look at the league standings if you don't believe me.
Fellas citing 2013 are ignoring that it was an anomaly that happened once in the history of the Gaa, when the three stronger counties were on the other side of the draw." Roughly speaking Kildare will have 2 games to reach a final versus teams of Sligos quality.
This is the easiest a draw can be in Leinster.
Having to beat Sligo twice to go through is a good bit harder than having to beat them once.
Every year in Connacht there is a half of the draw that is easier than that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 03/04/2018 20:30:41
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Replying To ROS1: "A lot has to do with the luck of the draw. My own county could have gotten mayo followed by galway or vise versa which would be the hardest possible draw of any province. There is also a argument that if we do get to a provincial final we will go in cold against a team who has two tough games under there belts kildare are on the right side of the draw in leinster. Westmeath arent great at the moment. Donegal and others have gotten kind draws in the past to get to ulster finals." If they are really as poor as they were when they played Galway in Newbridge recently (and they probably are that poor), it's probably more accurate to say that the other teams in Leinster that are in line to play Kildare are on the right side of the draw!
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1902 - 03/04/2018 20:38:29
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Granted Dublin have great players, are they better however than those that peppered the Kerry or Tyrone teams of the 2000s. I don't think so.
So you're left looking for other explanations for Dublin's dominance. For me a major one is the large professional backroom team they have. Dublin are as close to professionally trained, conditioned and prepared as this sport has seen. Where is the money to pay these people for their services coming from? Why do Dublin have that money and other counties don't? Didn't Gavin even add to his support team in January by bringing on board a video annalist from the soccer code? I don't often agree with Brolly but he made a good point when he said Dublin have everything in their backroom team bar a gynecologist.
Playing at effectively a home ground obviously contributes to their success in the Championship, I don't think anyone can deny this. Look at Kerry's own record for games in Killarney.
What about my point concerning individuals officiating massive Championship games involving Dublin who live in Dublin and have clear links to Dublin GAA clubs?
The Premiership stood down a referee in 2016 when Lecister were closing in on their title because he admitted to having previously going to a Lecister home game as a spectator. The Six Nations stood down the touch judge for the Ireland v England game this year as he had been involved in training with the English team.
I'd like to know if Dublin posters, or others, think it's ok that this goes on in the GAA??
I don't think any fair minded individual can look at how much the deck is stacked in Dublin's favor these past few years and not bear it in mind that when judging how great a side they are or on a wider point question what the GAA is at in allowing it to continue.
Listen it's been Kerry's worst decade since the 1990s, and I don't think the team we've had the last couple of years would have won much in any era. But there's one or two games they might have caught Dublin. Mayo of course are the county that should feel most aggrieved at these little advantages that have got Dublin over the line ahead of the rest.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 03/04/2018 20:56:11
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Interesting reading as well in relation to the League Final:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/reborn-galway-face-dublin-on-skewed-financial-playing-field-468899.html
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 03/04/2018 20:58:02
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Replying To TheHermit: "Granted Dublin have great players, are they better however than those that peppered the Kerry or Tyrone teams of the 2000s. I don't think so.
So you're left looking for other explanations for Dublin's dominance. For me a major one is the large professional backroom team they have. Dublin are as close to professionally trained, conditioned and prepared as this sport has seen. Where is the money to pay these people for their services coming from? Why do Dublin have that money and other counties don't? Didn't Gavin even add to his support team in January by bringing on board a video annalist from the soccer code? I don't often agree with Brolly but he made a good point when he said Dublin have everything in their backroom team bar a gynecologist.
Playing at effectively a home ground obviously contributes to their success in the Championship, I don't think anyone can deny this. Look at Kerry's own record for games in Killarney.
What about my point concerning individuals officiating massive Championship games involving Dublin who live in Dublin and have clear links to Dublin GAA clubs?
The Premiership stood down a referee in 2016 when Lecister were closing in on their title because he admitted to having previously going to a Lecister home game as a spectator. The Six Nations stood down the touch judge for the Ireland v England game this year as he had been involved in training with the English team.
I'd like to know if Dublin posters, or others, think it's ok that this goes on in the GAA??
I don't think any fair minded individual can look at how much the deck is stacked in Dublin's favor these past few years and not bear it in mind that when judging how great a side they are or on a wider point question what the GAA is at in allowing it to continue.
Listen it's been Kerry's worst decade since the 1990s, and I don't think the team we've had the last couple of years would have won much in any era. But there's one or two games they might have caught Dublin. Mayo of course are the county that should feel most aggrieved at these little advantages that have got Dublin over the line ahead of the rest." The Kerry team of the 2000s had fantastic footballers, one of the best teams i've seen, but the one weakness they had this Dublin are masters of is winning tight games, that Kerry team won most games by blitzing teams and the game was long over before the final whistle. Tyrone had exceptional players as well, but were quite average in between their All Ireland victories, they lost badly to teams like Laois and Derry, i remember Louth took them to a replay and extra time one year, they couldn't even make back to back finals in their pomp.
You make a valid point about the referees, but the rest of it for me is just a pile of excuses we've heard over and over again the last few years
Hill16Army (Dublin) - Posts: 88 - 03/04/2018 21:41:45
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Replying To Gleebo: "Flip side is that the three strongest teams in Connacht would more than likely beat anyone in Leinster barring Dublin, of course. Leinster just has more weak sides in their championship than Connacht, take a look at the league standings if you don't believe me.
Fellas citing 2013 are ignoring that it was an anomaly that happened once in the history of the Gaa, when the three stronger counties were on the other side of the draw." But if we use the last two years , Meath drew with Roscommon having threw away a 4 point injury time lead in Hyde this year, beat Galway last year and Sligo. So Meath (who are very much only building) still could do all that with 3 Connaught teams. This is not made up, it is a fact. That been said I don't want to throw this into a Meath v anyone debate , as I think we can all agree there is too much of that already.
The only thing I will ask you is this.
Would you be in favor of the loosing semi finals entering qualifying at a round earlier than Leinster or ulster, and the same for loosing finalists. This applying to Connaught and Munster only. Is that not a fair solution all round?
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 03/04/2018 22:06:13
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There seems to be some kind of sheens about the 00s, I'm a bit in two minds about the era if I'm honest, during the time I thought it was superbly compeitive with some terrific players, but when you drill down into results their are arguement their that Tyrone did have some shocking years and Kerry's success came by dishing them and pretty much beating Relatively weak Mayo and Cork teams, I think the legacy of the teams and maybe some of the players hasn't transcended time if I'm honest.
It's interesting the doom and conspirocey people come up with about this era. I remember during the 2000s it was labelled by the same doom merchants that it was the worst time ever for football. The birth of the blanket and puke football. People were walking away from the game in their thousands, the game was dying, all across the land football pitches were being turned into rugby pitches such was the speedy death of football. Doesnt really fit with the narrative that some are trying to project of the era, but their you are.
I would love the current Dublin team to have played in that 00s era would be hugely entertaing games, maybe we wouldn't have been as successful as we have been, but I'd still be confident of at least five Celtic crosses. A poorer Dublin side cut both Kerry and Tyrone down to bite size in 2011 and pretty much retired those two good teams. Then went on to limit great players like the Gooch and Star bar to minimal success of just one more medal picked up by dodging the Dubs.
For me 90s was by far the most competitive and real golden age of football, 8 different winners, Sam heading to each province, the rise of Ulster in Down, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. The provincials actually meant something with some brilliant wins for Clare, Leitrim, Cavan, Offaly and some trusly wonderful players and teams. By far the golden age of football and most competitive decade.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/04/2018 22:09:40
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Replying To jimbodub: " Replying To dubarra: "[quote=TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" I see. So it has nothing to do with having some the best footballers I've ever had the pleasure to watch and I've seen them all over the last 50yrs. In my opinion the great Dublin team of the 70s would only have about three or four starting with the present set up."
Aul thehermit there failed to mention that most Kerry fans have little or no faith in their current manager.
That's sort of a big advantage in our favour he failed to mention.
We have Jim Gavin. They have a man they don't rate...
He missed that one.
He also missed that despite the home advantage thing.. Dublin have by far and away the best away record in the country. Last loss was in 2015 away to Kerry.. so Dublin have had plenty of wins away from home.
You don't get to 6 NFL Div 1 finals on the bounce with a poor away record. :)"]Jim ye'r away games were all in the league, no one takes the league seriously unless they might end up in the final. Also how do you know we have no faith in fitzmaurice? Were you stalking the Kerry page again?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/04/2018 22:34:22
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Replying To TheUsername: "There seems to be some kind of sheens about the 00s, I'm a bit in two minds about the era if I'm honest, during the time I thought it was superbly compeitive with some terrific players, but when you drill down into results their are arguement their that Tyrone did have some shocking years and Kerry's success came by dishing them and pretty much beating Relatively weak Mayo and Cork teams, I think the legacy of the teams and maybe some of the players hasn't transcended time if I'm honest.
It's interesting the doom and conspirocey people come up with about this era. I remember during the 2000s it was labelled by the same doom merchants that it was the worst time ever for football. The birth of the blanket and puke football. People were walking away from the game in their thousands, the game was dying, all across the land football pitches were being turned into rugby pitches such was the speedy death of football. Doesnt really fit with the narrative that some are trying to project of the era, but their you are.
I would love the current Dublin team to have played in that 00s era would be hugely entertaing games, maybe we wouldn't have been as successful as we have been, but I'd still be confident of at least five Celtic crosses. A poorer Dublin side cut both Kerry and Tyrone down to bite size in 2011 and pretty much retired those two good teams. Then went on to limit great players like the Gooch and Star bar to minimal success of just one more medal picked up by dodging the Dubs.
For me 90s was by far the most competitive and real golden age of football, 8 different winners, Sam heading to each province, the rise of Ulster in Down, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. The provincials actually meant something with some brilliant wins for Clare, Leitrim, Cavan, Offaly and some trusly wonderful players and teams. By far the golden age of football and most competitive decade." I remember Dublin being dubbed the saviours of football not so long ago..
:)
You are very much correct regarding the commentary about the 00's
There's a fair amount of convenient revisionism going on surrounding that time
It was tooth and nail venom on here at times and many Ulster posters weren't best pleased regarding some of the labels being attached to Ulster football.. and that's saying it lightly.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 03/04/2018 22:37:27
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Replying To TheUsername: "There seems to be some kind of sheens about the 00s, I'm a bit in two minds about the era if I'm honest, during the time I thought it was superbly compeitive with some terrific players, but when you drill down into results their are arguement their that Tyrone did have some shocking years and Kerry's success came by dishing them and pretty much beating Relatively weak Mayo and Cork teams, I think the legacy of the teams and maybe some of the players hasn't transcended time if I'm honest.
It's interesting the doom and conspirocey people come up with about this era. I remember during the 2000s it was labelled by the same doom merchants that it was the worst time ever for football. The birth of the blanket and puke football. People were walking away from the game in their thousands, the game was dying, all across the land football pitches were being turned into rugby pitches such was the speedy death of football. Doesnt really fit with the narrative that some are trying to project of the era, but their you are.
I would love the current Dublin team to have played in that 00s era would be hugely entertaing games, maybe we wouldn't have been as successful as we have been, but I'd still be confident of at least five Celtic crosses. A poorer Dublin side cut both Kerry and Tyrone down to bite size in 2011 and pretty much retired those two good teams. Then went on to limit great players like the Gooch and Star bar to minimal success of just one more medal picked up by dodging the Dubs.
For me 90s was by far the most competitive and real golden age of football, 8 different winners, Sam heading to each province, the rise of Ulster in Down, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone. The provincials actually meant something with some brilliant wins for Clare, Leitrim, Cavan, Offaly and some trusly wonderful players and teams. By far the golden age of football and most competitive decade." That Cork team won An All-Ireland boyo and were a genuine top 3-4 team. Today's Mayo team have no more Sam Maguires now than they had then.
The 2000s were far more competitive and it was a far more level playing field than we've seen in the last few years.
Kerry and Tyrone and the rest weren't availing of record sponsorship deals and targeted central funding to get their house in order and their senior side up to standard.
Money doesn't put points over the bar but it does pay for the conditioning that allows Dean Rock to do it deep in injury time on All-Ireland Sunday. Teams are out on their feet after 70 mins playing Dublin, the gap in conditioning is frightening. If the rest had access to the same level and amount of expertise Dublin can employ things might be different. Sure when your players are all based in the county and don't have far to travel for collective training it helps too.
Little percentages that make a big difference.
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 03/04/2018 22:39:38
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "If they are really as poor as they were when they played Galway in Newbridge recently (and they probably are that poor), it's probably more accurate to say that the other teams in Leinster that are in line to play Kildare are on the right side of the draw!" Wow Galway heads really are swelling!!
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 04/04/2018 00:04:33
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@username that's a very jaundiced view of the 00's, the game dying and all that. If you are trying to say that things are much healthier now I think you need to venture outside the capital once in a while, where some county teams cannot get their best players to commit and club teams have to amalgamate to get 15 on the pitch.
As for Kerry strolling to All Ireland's by beating relatively weak opposition, what was it that the pot said to the kettle again?
The 90's was truly a remarkable decade alright, with all the northern teams owning the early part and then along came Dublin, Meath, Kerry and Galway. It really was fantastic and so unpredictable. I can't imagine we will ever see the likes again unfortunately.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 04/04/2018 00:24:49
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Remember it was a Kerry commentator that coined the phrase " puke football " . Livid that these fellas had the audacity to beat Kerry again and again.
Some of these guys really cannot stomach their beatings and have the sheer lack of class to try and detract from the achievements of a committed and skilfull bunch of players who give so much time and energy to being the best they can be. They are no friends of the sport when they do all they can in blind bitterness to dismiss the countless hours of volunteers who coach young kids and make the sacrifice week in week out to provide fresh talent in the years ahead.
Although predictable and without any real credibility at this stage it is a shame they are probably trotting this bile out to impressionable youngsters also.
Ignorance becomes as acceptable as the truth.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 04/04/2018 08:17:59
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I have no doubt that Dublin's dominance will eventually be broken and if anything the levels of fitness and standards in general are being pushed higher in order to do just that.
You can say what you like but these cycles come and go and this is just another one that will be seen in years to come for just that.
There will be some super games this year I think and really looking forward to it.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 04/04/2018 09:51:20
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boring football championship ahead, hand out the sam to dublin and get it over with, at least we have the soccer world cup
dec (None) - Posts: 268 - 04/04/2018 12:38:19
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Replying To catch22: "I have no doubt that Dublin's dominance will eventually be broken and if anything the levels of fitness and standards in general are being pushed higher in order to do just that.
You can say what you like but these cycles come and go and this is just another one that will be seen in years to come for just that.
There will be some super games this year I think and really looking forward to it." The dominance will be broken, by their shadow.
Kerry have won 4 of the last minor titles. Dublin have won 4 of the last 8 u21s. So there is your yardstick by which you can measure the future of the championship.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 04/04/2018 12:57:14
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Looking forward to the summer ahead, it should be a competitive championship as always, Dublin are clear and deserving favourites but dominance never lasts forever and a new leader can emerge out of the pack but it takes hard work and damn hard work at that. Still not convinced about the super 8s, I think group stages should open a championship not commence nearing the end but let's wait and see.
From a Meath point of view, we have a hell of a lot of work to do and unfortunately we look a little short of talent to challenge the top teams but sure look it, hope srings eternal and you never know what lies ahead.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 04/04/2018 13:59:45
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