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Replying To dubarra: "Teams that won All Ireland's between from 1974 to 1986 Kerry 8 Dublin 4 Offally 1 .No complaints from Kerry boys then was there it seems to me a lot of them feel it's their God given right to win Sam every yr" I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 03/04/2018 15:29:44
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Replying To ROS1: "A lot has to do with the luck of the draw. My own county could have gotten mayo followed by galway or vise versa which would be the hardest possible draw of any province. There is also a argument that if we do get to a provincial final we will go in cold against a team who has two tough games under there belts kildare are on the right side of the draw in leinster. Westmeath arent great at the moment. Donegal and others have gotten kind draws in the past to get to ulster finals." 2010 - down in quarters, wouldve had tyrone in semis if we beat down
2011 - tyrone in semis
2012 - tyrone in semis
2013 - tyrone in quarters
2014 - derry in quarters
2015 - tyrone in pelim, armagh in quarters, derry in semis
2016 - monaghan in semis
2017 - tyrone in semis
2018 - cavan in pelim
In that time Kerry have had around 4 or 5 competitive games in Munster
NaomhNaille (Donegal) - Posts: 124 - 03/04/2018 15:53:22
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Replying To ROS1: "A lot has to do with the luck of the draw. My own county could have gotten mayo followed by galway or vise versa which would be the hardest possible draw of any province. There is also a argument that if we do get to a provincial final we will go in cold against a team who has two tough games under there belts kildare are on the right side of the draw in leinster. Westmeath arent great at the moment. Donegal and others have gotten kind draws in the past to get to ulster finals." There's also a hugely important effect in the qualifiers system where getting to a Provincial final skips 2 rounds of qualifiers. That's huge. It's impossible in Ulster or Leinster to have such an easy run to a Provincial final. Which makes the difference.
There is luck of the draw but Connacht can be ridiculously easy.
2 of the 6 serious teams are consistently among the worst 4 teams in the country.
Sligo are consistently a below average county team. These mean the draws can regularly throw up incredibly easy routes.
The last 3 seasons for Roscommon have been very easy.
London got to a Provincial final a few years ago. That just couldn't happen outside Connacht.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 03/04/2018 16:09:26
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The provincial championships are the problem. Traditionalists will fight tooth and nail to keep them but so long as they are linked to the overall AI championship the inequities we see will continue.
The fairest and most practical solution is if league positions are used to seed the AI championship. But shoe-horning provincial competitions into the middle of that is the thorny issue.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9104 - 03/04/2018 16:19:24
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Replying To Lockjaw: "The provincial championships are the problem. Traditionalists will fight tooth and nail to keep them but so long as they are linked to the overall AI championship the inequities we see will continue.
The fairest and most practical solution is if league positions are used to seed the AI championship. But shoe-horning provincial competitions into the middle of that is the thorny issue." The Provincial championships do make things less equal. At the same time though they are important for the interest in the game.
Even though many games aren't likely to be good contests you still get good crowds at Provincial championship matches. I just couldn't see it being a smart move for exposure for the games to get rid of them from the All Ireland series.
It's not just about tradition it's about the Provincial championships being a great marketing tool. A Provincial semifinal is of a similar standard to an All Ireland last 16 game, I just don't think that could generate the same interest, particularly when you're losing the local derby aspect associated with the Provincial match.
There are ways of making things a little more fair while still keeping the Provinces.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 03/04/2018 16:36:52
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Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" 33 teams take part in the Championship mate.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/04/2018 16:54:56
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Pity that another thread has been turned into the same old thing by the usual posters. Talk about having an agenda! :)
Trying their best to conveniently ignore just how competitive this decade has been in order to peddle their wears.
Far more competitive football played this decade compared to last and it's all there in black and white.
Some of the greatest games ever witnessed at a time when there's never been better strategy employed, tactical awareness, conversion rates, higher level of fitness and strength conditioning, game pace and skill sets to play the sport at such pace as accurately as possible.
The day of lumping the ball towards goal and hope for the best is over.
Not one single cake walk AI win this decade unlike the 00's or 70's or 80's and I'd be surprised if that changes in 2018.
The game has advanced since those days of 15 v 15.
Just like all the Championship seasons this decade it will be very competitive. That's the nature of the game now.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20598 - 03/04/2018 17:01:18
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Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" Lifted from the Kerry gas forum in response to hysteria after their league final defeat to us this year.
There are 39,000 registered players in Dublin. This is not insurmountable .
The monies invested in Dublin were largely funded by the sports Council. These monies were invested in GoGames and at primary level. The Games promotional officers went into primary schools to promote the games . The value for money in this initiative is up for debate . As someone who has had a role in employing GPO's and also worked in the primary sector I can say ithe dividends of this investment are vastly overstated and fairly intangible.
Crucially the youngest of the Dublin panel wouldn't have benefitted directly from this investment at all as they had in almost every instance graduated beyond this stage of the games by the time of its implementation .
The fact is that this team is not financially doped . It's inaccurate to portray it as such and it undermines the hard work, stunning talent and great management they are the proponents of .
. It also undermines the real issue that is likely to develop.
I absolute agree a storm is on the horoizon and that the GAA has an absolute obligation to invest the same amount in coaching throughout the country as is invested in Dubli
DannyMcA (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 03/04/2018 17:11:40
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Replying To Whammo86: "The Provincial championships do make things less equal. At the same time though they are important for the interest in the game.
Even though many games aren't likely to be good contests you still get good crowds at Provincial championship matches. I just couldn't see it being a smart move for exposure for the games to get rid of them from the All Ireland series.
It's not just about tradition it's about the Provincial championships being a great marketing tool. A Provincial semifinal is of a similar standard to an All Ireland last 16 game, I just don't think that could generate the same interest, particularly when you're losing the local derby aspect associated with the Provincial match.
There are ways of making things a little more fair while still keeping the Provinces." The GAA was built on structures that were, and are, unequal at all levels - parish, county and province. It is doubtful if doing away with the Provincial c'ships would make any real difference in the race for Sam. However, a provincial title is a much more attainable target than Sam for most counties - with Leinster being the only province where one county is a shoo-in for the title. In Ulster, even the so-called weaker counties like Antrim and Fermanagh will harbour ambitions of winning the title or at least reaching the final given a bit of luck along the way. In Connacht Galway, Mayo and Roscommon might be seen as the strongest contenders but Sligo and Leitrim will see opportunities of reaching the final,. In Munster Claire, Tipperary and Limerick have every right to believe that they are in with more than a decent shout but Sam would not be in their thoughts.
Bringing together neighbouring counties in the provincials generates excitement amoung supporters, like no other games. This brings out the big crowds that brings a real buzz and indeed money to provincial towns throughout the early part of summer. Most youngsters will always remember the colour, excitement and banter from these games
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 03/04/2018 17:15:39
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Replying To DannyMcA: " Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" Lifted from the Kerry gas forum in response to hysteria after their league final defeat to us this year. There are 39,000 registered players in Dublin. This is not insurmountable . The monies invested in Dublin were largely funded by the sports Council. These monies were invested in GoGames and at primary level. The Games promotional officers went into primary schools to promote the games . The value for money in this initiative is up for debate . As someone who has had a role in employing GPO's and also worked in the primary sector I can say ithe dividends of this investment are vastly overstated and fairly intangible. Crucially the youngest of the Dublin panel wouldn't have benefitted directly from this investment at all as they had in almost every instance graduated beyond this stage of the games by the time of its implementation . The fact is that this team is not financially doped . It's inaccurate to portray it as such and it undermines the hard work, stunning talent and great management they are the proponents of . . It also undermines the real issue that is likely to develop. I absolute agree a storm is on the horoizon and that the GAA has an absolute obligation to invest the same amount in coaching throughout the country as is invested in Dubli"
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20598 - 03/04/2018 17:27:57
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Replying To Whammo86: "There's also a hugely important effect in the qualifiers system where getting to a Provincial final skips 2 rounds of qualifiers. That's huge. It's impossible in Ulster or Leinster to have such an easy run to a Provincial final. Which makes the difference.
There is luck of the draw but Connacht can be ridiculously easy.
2 of the 6 serious teams are consistently among the worst 4 teams in the country.
Sligo are consistently a below average county team. These mean the draws can regularly throw up incredibly easy routes.
The last 3 seasons for Roscommon have been very easy.
London got to a Provincial final a few years ago. That just couldn't happen outside Connacht." Roscommon had 3 games to win in 16 to get to a provincial final. Sligo are as good if not better then any team kildare will have to beat to get to a leinster final
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 03/04/2018 17:44:07
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Replying To neverright: "The GAA was built on structures that were, and are, unequal at all levels - parish, county and province. It is doubtful if doing away with the Provincial c'ships would make any real difference in the race for Sam. However, a provincial title is a much more attainable target than Sam for most counties - with Leinster being the only province where one county is a shoo-in for the title. In Ulster, even the so-called weaker counties like Antrim and Fermanagh will harbour ambitions of winning the title or at least reaching the final given a bit of luck along the way. In Connacht Galway, Mayo and Roscommon might be seen as the strongest contenders but Sligo and Leitrim will see opportunities of reaching the final,. In Munster Claire, Tipperary and Limerick have every right to believe that they are in with more than a decent shout but Sam would not be in their thoughts.
Bringing together neighbouring counties in the provincials generates excitement amoung supporters, like no other games. This brings out the big crowds that brings a real buzz and indeed money to provincial towns throughout the early part of summer. Most youngsters will always remember the colour, excitement and banter from these games" Yep agree with all that. They have to stay.
I'd tweak the championship to make things more even but keep the Provincials as part of the AI series in a reduced way.
There's a few methods to do this. I think the Provincials do cause equality problems but they are surmountable, just no one in power has ever tried to.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 03/04/2018 18:12:02
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Sligo would be competitive in Leinster, westmeath got to 2 finals and they weren't then or now any better than Sligo.
OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1760 - 03/04/2018 18:21:12
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Replying To neverright: "The GAA was built on structures that were, and are, unequal at all levels - parish, county and province. It is doubtful if doing away with the Provincial c'ships would make any real difference in the race for Sam. However, a provincial title is a much more attainable target than Sam for most counties - with Leinster being the only province where one county is a shoo-in for the title. In Ulster, even the so-called weaker counties like Antrim and Fermanagh will harbour ambitions of winning the title or at least reaching the final given a bit of luck along the way. In Connacht Galway, Mayo and Roscommon might be seen as the strongest contenders but Sligo and Leitrim will see opportunities of reaching the final,. In Munster Claire, Tipperary and Limerick have every right to believe that they are in with more than a decent shout but Sam would not be in their thoughts.
Bringing together neighbouring counties in the provincials generates excitement amoung supporters, like no other games. This brings out the big crowds that brings a real buzz and indeed money to provincial towns throughout the early part of summer. Most youngsters will always remember the colour, excitement and banter from these games" I have no problem in keeping the provincial championship, but would you agree with my and whammo point that BOTH Munster and Connaught come into qualifying at different level to Leinster and ulster. Look I have seen with my own eyes how good Leinster has been look at Westmeath first ever title , beating dubs along the way. Look at Laois the same in naughty (although not their first) Kildare in 90s Meath v Louth in 10 , (forget about end of game) the build up was absolutely fantastic, our own demolition of Dublin in semi final. All great days , and ones that should be kept.
However we have now entered a new era in football the super 8s where any team that gets that far is guaranteed 3 games including one at home and one in Croke Park, a great help to county funds to maybe bring a mayo or Dublin to your county grounds (I pick these two for the huge support they bring) when this is factored in there should be no advantages depending on what province you in, as I said I'm trying to keep anything about Meath out of it, so I'll use Westmeath, can you imagine the crowd in Mullingar should they get that far and bring mayo to the town?
Because the super 8s is a new format, to say the gaa has always been unequal isn't gonna cut it.
With this new format the unequal way teams enter it must be addressed ASAP. I'll add another thing, Roscommon, mayo Galway Kerry would all most likely get into it anyway, however they should have to play the same amount of games as everyone else.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 03/04/2018 18:23:09
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Replying To ROS1: "Roscommon had 3 games to win in 16 to get to a provincial final. Sligo are as good if not better then any team kildare will have to beat to get to a leinster final" New York and Leitrim are total gimmes.
Kildares route this year is particularly easy for Leinster and it's still harder than your 2016 route which was your hardest in the last 3 years.
Connacht is also now at its strongest for a long time, Leinster is at its weakest. You lads had it even better 10 years ago on average.
Your argument is so outrageous you've got me sideing with Royaldunne :)
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4195 - 03/04/2018 18:31:53
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Replying To Whammo86: "New York and Leitrim are total gimmes.
Kildares route this year is particularly easy for Leinster and it's still harder than your 2016 route which was your hardest in the last 3 years.
Connacht is also now at its strongest for a long time, Leinster is at its weakest. You lads had it even better 10 years ago on average.
Your argument is so outrageous you've got me sideing with Royaldunne :)" God help you for that!! Roscommon were lucky to get out of new York with a 1 point win hardly a gimme and indeed lost one of our best forwards due to there style of play.10 years ago connacht was exremely competitive 4 winners in 4 years. If you are the opposite side of dublin in leinster then you have a handy enough draw has been the case for years.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 03/04/2018 18:55:20
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Replying To kildare73: "And if Dublin were in another province how competitive would that province be? The best team in the country, arguably the best ever, are in Leinster and that skews the competitiveness. Come championship post Leinster every other county then in turn can't beat them either. Most find out how uncompetitive they are too. After Mayo,Kildare were the team next nearest Dublin in a run that included Dublin playing what were the best two teams in Ulster." If Dublin were in another province then half its panel would be living, working or studying 150+ miles away. Early morning training sessions would be out of the question and players would regularly return from evening training at 1am, to get themselves turned around for work the following morning. Dublin would still be winning All Irelands, given the talent at their disposal and Jim Gavin steering the ship, they just wouldn't be eyeing up a 4 in-a-row, and some of the league titles would probably have been sacrificed. They'd still be playing lots of games in Croker, but just not as residents. Basically they'd be Kerry, or Donegal, or Tyrone or even us (but without all the daft stuff!).
As regards Leinster, it's funny the parallels between the counties commercial well being and the games. In both instances proximity to Dublin sucks the life out of their neighbours. Population-wise Leinster has the largest towns in Ireland, but they've become sleeping towns for Dublin. The survey which measures annual retail turnover shows that outside of the cities of this country, Tralee is the place with highest retail turnover, followed by Castlebar, then Ennis, Letterkenny and Athlone, places with less than a half or even a third of the population of the likes of Drogheda and smaller than the likes of Navan or Naas. Only Kilkenny holds it own (surprise, surprise)! The character of places like Meath seems to have suffered and population growth doesn't seem to make up for a true sense of place. Still, what's happened to Leinster is on the cards for the rest of us and in 20 -30 years, the greater Dublin area (half of Leinster) will have perhaps 4 teams in the championship, Galway will have two, given that half of Mayo and Roscommon will have moved there for jobs. Cork might have a couple of hurling teams, they'll never be able to tolerate more than one set of time wasters!
Kill the life of a place in every sense other than being somewhere to lay your head at night and identity soon follows.
Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2521 - 03/04/2018 19:03:59
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Replying To Whammo86: "New York and Leitrim are total gimmes.
Kildares route this year is particularly easy for Leinster and it's still harder than your 2016 route which was your hardest in the last 3 years.
Connacht is also now at its strongest for a long time, Leinster is at its weakest. You lads had it even better 10 years ago on average.
Your argument is so outrageous you've got me sideing with Royaldunne :)" Flip side is that the three strongest teams in Connacht would more than likely beat anyone in Leinster barring Dublin, of course. Leinster just has more weak sides in their championship than Connacht, take a look at the league standings if you don't believe me.
Fellas citing 2013 are ignoring that it was an anomaly that happened once in the history of the Gaa, when the three stronger counties were on the other side of the draw.
Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 03/04/2018 19:15:35
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Replying To ROS1: "God help you for that!! Roscommon were lucky to get out of new York with a 1 point win hardly a gimme and indeed lost one of our best forwards due to there style of play.10 years ago connacht was exremely competitive 4 winners in 4 years. If you are the opposite side of dublin in leinster then you have a handy enough draw has been the case for years." so just because u played horribly against a team that has never won in the championship (not 100% sure correct me if wrong) means you got a tough draw?? your point makes no sense whatsoever
NaomhNaille (Donegal) - Posts: 124 - 03/04/2018 19:17:29
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Replying To TheHermit: "I think the most salient point is this:
Counties that competed and have won All-Irelands through marshaling the resources and talents at their disposal since the dawn of the inter-county Championship in 1887 - 31
Counties that have been handed the financial resources to hire and maintain a professional back room staff the size of a small army which ensures every aspect of their fitness, conditioning and match preparation is professional and hence why they now dominate - 1
Add to that, the incessant home advantage, the officials being appointed for Dublin's major games with strong links to the Dublin GAA etc etc, and you see why they are now going for 4 in a row.
If it was anyway a level playing field like it used be in the 2000s when Kerry/Cork/Tyrone/Armagh and the rest were going at each other you would just have to suck it up and admire what this Dublin team achieved.
But it's not an even playing field anymore is it, its a system created to ensure Dublin win as much as they can.
Our Dublin friends can put their heads in the sand, label people who point this out as whingers and laugh all they want, it won't change the reality of what inter-county football now is - an artificially created elite of 1.
Now I better be off before Jimbo claims I've grievously insulted all his family and friends again ;D" pure and utter bitter nonsense
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 03/04/2018 19:25:14
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