National Forum

Black Card Is Dead

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The black card has to be forgotten about. Dramatic statement I know but if we are to accept the evidence from Croke Park today then the Black Card does not apply to Dublin as they could have got three (3) by the 10th min v Galway today. Don't tell me that they were not clear cut, with a lot of the minnows a hint of a black card is enough but not when Dublin are concerned.
MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 231 - 01/04/2018 16:49:51
There is issues with the Black card but it shouldnt be forgotten about unless something is in place to replace it. I think its more than a bit petty to be having a go at dublin on it.

Then that means there's a problem with refereeing standards, not with the rule itself.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 452 - 01/04/2018 17:26:16
Not necessarily refereeing standards but what referees are being directed/taught!!!

The black card was brought in to punish cynical fouling, scrap it and use this simple ruling, a professional/cynical foul inside the 20m line is a straight red card, outside that line a yellow card, it's beyond time we had the use of video ref, clearly our 4 umpires, 2 linesmen and refs are letting things go, missing blatant fouls or just making the wrong calls, let the play continue but have a video person telling the ref that he made the wrong decision and correct it, there is an off the ball incident and who started it or who is involved etc. It doesn't have to delay the game but the video ref has to be quick with his call, you can't have play continuing for 3 or 4 mins before he tells the ref something that happened ages ago and go back
riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1188 - 01/04/2018 23:42:07
Having any professional foul inside 20m line as a straight red card would be terrible. And would see some fouls barely worth a yellow being awarded a red. That isnt right and doesnt help improve the sport. I dont think video ref will actually improve management of gaelic/hurling that much. Improving the rules in both sports. Helping referees and dealing with abuse from coaches more would be far better.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 08/04/2018 00:47:38    2091598

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There is a simple solution. They have it in Ladies Footie. Sin bin and it works a treat. Yellow card is 10 minutes in the bin. The Black Card is inherently wrong as it punishes an individual for a team foul.
They tried the sin bin before but threw it out.......mainly because they hadn't the balls to stand up to managers talking rubbish (Mickey Harte heads the poll on this one, but he certainly was not alone). Main criticism is the inconsistent application by referees. If you threw out every rule referees were inconsistent with you would have no left!
Sin bin is simple and straight forward. Bring it in. Publish referees assessors scores. Promote and relegate refs for bad performance.i.e. Blatant non implementation of rules (basically they see it but bottle it) Some refs will pack it in but maybe we should give a few quid extra to the good ones that remain.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 589 - 03/04/2018 13:24:51
I agree on a sin bin but completely disagree about publishing referee assessments. The public have no right to see them. Refs are regularly promoted and downgraded levels all the time.
Anyone who thinks that by using assessors that you will improve Ref performance is not living in the real world. In most cases the assessor knows less than the guy with the whistle and using stats will not improve much -it has not improved our games much either. Attaching new rules makes it very difficult for a Ref- black card is a good example. The guys analysing on tv have problems even with replays deciding what is a free, or not a free and most of the time differ.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1706 - 07/04/2018 18:15:44
assessors will be stronger, more experienced referees and rugby is perfect example to show that using assessors you can and do improve a referees performance.

It's impossible to ref a game 100% accurately especially now with the level of dark arts on display. Players give out when a decision goes against them but largely it's the players own fault that refs are currently overworked.. some games are just unrefable!
Refs need more help from umpires and linesmen and players need to take responsibility for how difficult they are making it to ref a game with a high level of accuracy.
I 100% agree that the black card can be poorly dished out at times but there's no doubt that it's stopped the blocking of runs off the ball etc
And that's it's greatest success to date and its no doubt aided teams with talented attaching half backs.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 17880 - 07/04/2018 21:19:49
no game will ever ever be refereed 100% accurately just like no player will ever play 100% accurately Refs do need more help from umpires and linesmen but need more help from changes to the rule book to help their management of the game

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 08/04/2018 00:51:17    2091599

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There is a simple solution. They have it in Ladies Footie. Sin bin and it works a treat. Yellow card is 10 minutes in the bin. The Black Card is inherently wrong as it punishes an individual for a team foul.
They tried the sin bin before but threw it out.......mainly because they hadn't the balls to stand up to managers talking rubbish (Mickey Harte heads the poll on this one, but he certainly was not alone). Main criticism is the inconsistent application by referees. If you threw out every rule referees were inconsistent with you would have no left!
Sin bin is simple and straight forward. Bring it in. Publish referees assessors scores. Promote and relegate refs for bad performance.i.e. Blatant non implementation of rules (basically they see it but bottle it) Some refs will pack it in but maybe we should give a few quid extra to the good ones that remain.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 589 - 03/04/2018 13:24:51
I agree on a sin bin but completely disagree about publishing referee assessments. The public have no right to see them. Refs are regularly promoted and downgraded levels all the time.
Anyone who thinks that by using assessors that you will improve Ref performance is not living in the real world. In most cases the assessor knows less than the guy with the whistle and using stats will not improve much -it has not improved our games much either. Attaching new rules makes it very difficult for a Ref- black card is a good example. The guys analysing on tv have problems even with replays deciding what is a free, or not a free and most of the time differ.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 1706 - 07/04/2018 18:15:44
assessors will be stronger, more experienced referees and rugby is perfect example to show that using assessors you can and do improve a referees performance.

It's impossible to ref a game 100% accurately especially now with the level of dark arts on display. Players give out when a decision goes against them but largely it's the players own fault that refs are currently overworked.. some games are just unrefable!
Refs need more help from umpires and linesmen and players need to take responsibility for how difficult they are making it to ref a game with a high level of accuracy.
I 100% agree that the black card can be poorly dished out at times but there's no doubt that it's stopped the blocking of runs off the ball etc
And that's it's greatest success to date and its no doubt aided teams with talented attaching half backs.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 17880 - 07/04/2018 21:19:49
no game will ever ever be refereed 100% accurately just like no player will ever play 100% accurately Refs do need more help from umpires and linesmen but need more help from changes to the rule book to help their management of the game

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 08/04/2018 00:51:18    2091600

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The sin bin is a far more effective deterent if you actually want to disadvantage a side.
OK,14 often beat 15 but teams don't really prepare with this in mind as it's not the norm and I think if the sin bin was introduced you would see more effective use of the extra player.
Being able to introduce a replacement is only really a disadvantage to the weaker squads and at that you still have 15 on the field.10 or 15 minutes without a player would be better punishment imo.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 1656 - 08/04/2018 09:15:16    2091614

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "The sin bin is a far more effective deterent if you actually want to disadvantage a side.
OK,14 often beat 15 but teams don't really prepare with this in mind as it's not the norm and I think if the sin bin was introduced you would see more effective use of the extra player.
Being able to introduce a replacement is only really a disadvantage to the weaker squads and at that you still have 15 on the field.10 or 15 minutes without a player would be better punishment imo."
15 minutes is far too harsh. 10 is perfect for sin bin

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 08/04/2018 13:41:38    2091637

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Then that means there's a problem with refereeing standards, not with the rule itself."
I was a bit hasty with this post of mine. I still think I'm right about refereeing standards in the context of the original post; there's nothing worse for players, management or spectators than to see an opponent not being dealt with in accordance with the rules and therefore that opponents's team has an advantage. However, the rule itself is a bit of a balls. It's a tough thing to punish a player for a non-red card offence by removing him from the game entirely. I think the sin bin is the way to go. Or even meet half way and sub the player off for 10 mins and let the substitution be reversed then, or something similar. Or maybe not. I dunno.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 468 - 13/04/2018 19:26:00    2092898

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If bringing in a sin bin rule then it has to work both ways, cynical fouling sin bin but if faking a foul or dragging a player down on top of you hoping the ref sees it as a foul against you should also be a sin bin offence

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1268 - 16/04/2018 21:18:13    2093407

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You can't bring in a sin bin without also bringing in a match clock. Other sports have shown that the sin bin is a great way of encouraging teams to time-waste, I'm not sure why anyone would be in favour of more of that.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2186 - 16/04/2018 21:46:11    2093414

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