National Forum

Two Tier Competition

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To intialise the two tier championship competition: just an example!!!

2018 league positions will determine what tier of competition your county is in for the summer championship of 2018.

so for example say the league standings are as follows:

div 1: div 2 div 3 div4
Dublin galway louth w'meath
Kerry kildare tipp wexford
Donegal meath armagh carlow
Monaghan cork sligo leitrim
mayo clare offaly limerick
tyrone down longford waterford
Cavan derry antrim wicklow
roscommon fermanagh laois london


There is two all-ireland competitions
1. made of the div1&2 teams above
2. made of the div3&4 teams above

top tier championship is four groups of four teams , a,b,c,d
There is seeding i.e from above pot 1 dublin, kerry, donegal, monaghan
pot 2 mayo,tyrone, cavan, roscommon
pot 3 galway, kildare, meath, cork
pot4 clare, down, derry, fermanagh

draw done and you have four groups for example a) dub, ros, galway, clare
b) kerry, cavan, kildare, down
c) donegal, tyrone, meath, derry,
d) monaghan, mayo, cork, fermanagh

3 matches for each team in the group,
Top two of each group head to 1/4 of all-ireland top tier comp- then can progress to final
bottom 4 teams play one match ie bottom a) plays bottom d)
bottom b) plays bottom c)
2losers of these matches relegated to lower tier competition

lower tier competition played on same basis with only one difference, new york have a preliminary match against a selected team to be able to enter the 2nd tier competition.

on sat ---- all ireland final tier two comp
on sun--- all ireland final tier one comp

keepherlow (Tyrone) - 02/11/2017 17:50:32    2059831

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Should be called The Henry Shefflin Cup

PyatPree (Cork) - 02/11/2017 19:26:38    2059849

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I'd have 4 tiers based on league positions with the 3 lower tier winners/qualifiers joining the top 6/8 to play off for Sam

shea (Kerry) - 02/11/2017 20:11:36    2059859

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Simple really. All the counties want the chance to play for the Sam Maguire cup. Use the leagues as pots for groups of 4. Play the group and the top two from the group go through to the Sam Maguire cup, the bottom too go through to play for Tommy Murphy Cup (or whatever they'll call it). Nobody can have any complaints with that structure.

letsgosligo (Sligo) - 02/11/2017 20:20:43    2059863

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I would have three tiers with Senior having 12 teams and Inter and Junior having 10 teams each. Basing the seedings on how the counties finished up last year in the league:

Senior would have 12 teams (All 8 Div 1 teams plus top 4 teams in Div 2).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Monaghan, Mayo, Tyrone, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway, Kildare, Meath and Cork. There would be 3 groups with 4 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get a home match, an away match and one match would be neutral. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Cavan, Cork, Donegal, Dublin.
Group B: Galway, Kerry, Kildare, Mayo.
Group C: Meath, Monaghan, Roscommon, Tyrone.

Top 2 in each group plus the 2 best third places go through to the quarter-finals. It would all be ranked:
A) Group winner with the best record v third place team with the worse record. (1 v 8)
B) Group winner with the second best record v third place team with the second worse record. (2 v 7)
C) Group winner with the third best record v Runners up with the worse record. (3 v 6)
D) Runners up with the best record v Runners up with the second best record. (4 v 5)

Semi - Finals:
1) Winner Match A v D
2) Winner Match B v C

Final:
1 v 2

Relegation:
This would be the 3 teams that finish bottom plus the 3rd team with the worse record. This would also be ranked:
A) The 3rd team with the worse record would play the bottom team with the worse record. (9 v 12)
B) The bottom team with the third worse record would play the bottom team with second worse record. (10 v 11)

The two losers from A and B would play each in the relegation final with the loser going down to Inter.

Inter would have 10 teams.( Bottom 4 teams in Div 2 plus top 6 teams in Div 3).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Clare, Down, Derry, Fermanagh, Louth, Tipp, Armagh, Sligo, Offaly and Longford. There would be 2 groups with 5 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get 2 home matches and 2 away matches. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Armagh, Clare, Derry, Down, Fermanagh.
Group B: Longford, Louth, Offaly, Sligo, Tipp.

Third place teams would meet the runners up in the quarter-finals:
1) Runner up in Group A v 3rd team in Group B
2) Runner up in Group B v 3rd team in Group A

Semi-Finals:
A) Winner Group A v Winner of 2
B) Winner Group B v Winner of 1

Final:
A v B

Relegation:
1) Bottom team in Group A v Second bottom in Group B
2) Bottom team in Group B v Second bottom in Group A

The two losers from 1 v 2 would play each other with the loser going down to Junior.

Junior would have 10 teams.( Bottom 2 teams in Div 3 plus all 8 Div 4 teams).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Antrim, Laois, Westmeath, Wexford, Carlow, Limerick, Leitrim, Waterford, Wicklow, London. There would be 2 groups with 5 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get 2 home matches and 2 away matches. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Antrim, Carlow, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick.
Group B: London, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow.

Third place teams would meet the runners up in the quarter-finals:
1) Runner up in Group A v 3rd team in Group B
2) Runner up in Group B v 3rd team in Group A

Semi-Finals:
A) Winner Group A v Winner of 2
B) Winner Group B v Winner of 1

Final:
A v B

OLLIE (Louth) - 02/11/2017 21:34:14    2059884

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Replying To letsgosligo:  "Simple really. All the counties want the chance to play for the Sam Maguire cup. Use the leagues as pots for groups of 4. Play the group and the top two from the group go through to the Sam Maguire cup, the bottom too go through to play for Tommy Murphy Cup (or whatever they'll call it). Nobody can have any complaints with that structure."
Every club team wants to play in the senior championship too (well except for Corduff in Monaghan but thats another story). Every team dont nor shouldnt.
Intermediate and junior teams celebrate championship wins as much for the promotion as the cup itself. A second tier competition based on progression will work, a second tier competition run between loser teams will not.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - 02/11/2017 21:40:25    2059890

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Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Every club team wants to play in the senior championship too (well except for Corduff in Monaghan but thats another story). Every team dont nor shouldnt.
Intermediate and junior teams celebrate championship wins as much for the promotion as the cup itself. A second tier competition based on progression will work, a second tier competition run between loser teams will not."
Any proposal that removes an automatic right to play for the Sam Maguire cup would be rejected by all counties. What's the problem with what I suggested?

letsgosligo (Sligo) - 03/11/2017 01:15:37    2059937

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I kind of find it strange everyone always wants a League secondary competition and a tournament style main competition.

I really great change in my opinion would be to incorporate league into championship.

So I'd run All Ireland club in February and March.

Start the intercounty league season in April.

I'd make the leagues such that we're maximizing the sorts of games people will care about.

So Division 1 of 12 teams.
Division 2 North of 10 teams
Division 2 South of 10 teams

Top 4 from division 1 into All Ireland semis
11th and 12th Automatically relegated.
9th and 10th into a relegation playoff with division 2 teams.

Division 2

Top 2 from each group into division 2 semifinals
3rd and 4th from each group into a promotion playoff round 1.

Division 2 finalists promoted.

Losing semi finalists go into promotion playoff round 2, along with the round 1 winners.

Promotion round 2 winners play 9th and 10th place Division 1 Teams in the Final promotion relegation matches.

The whole competition takes up only 13 game weeks. Every team's fixtures can be determined right at the start of the season and club action played in parallel to county action without disruption.

Play the regular season April to August. Each county has 11 weekends out of 22 they'll be in intercounty action (arrange hurling also for those weekends). County boards are forced to set aside 6 of their free weekends in that time for club matches with county players between the 2 codes.

September used again for All Ireland semifinals and finals.

September/October used for finishing off club competitions.

November December January free.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 03/11/2017 05:47:08    2059941

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The top 12 teams based on the following http://gaarankings.net would make the following divisions.

Division 1
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Monaghan
Galway
Roscommon
Kildare
Cork
Meath
Tipperary

Division 2 North
Armagh
Cavan
Derry
Down
Fermanagh
Sligo
Louth
Antrim
Leitrim
London (they can float between the divisions)

Division 2 South
Clare
Westmeath
Longford
Wexford
Laois
Offaly
Carlow
Limerick
Waterford
Wicklow

There's some quality games even in division 2.

Division 1 football would be really top quality. The best teams playing week in week out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 03/11/2017 06:01:36    2059942

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The top 12 teams based on the following http://gaarankings.net would make the following divisions.

Division 1
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Monaghan
Galway
Roscommon
Kildare
Cork
Meath
Tipperary

Division 2 North
Armagh
Cavan
Derry
Down
Fermanagh
Sligo
Louth
Antrim
Leitrim
London (they can float between the divisions)

Division 2 South
Clare
Westmeath
Longford
Wexford
Laois
Offaly
Carlow
Limerick
Waterford
Wicklow

There's some quality games even in division 2.

Division 1 football would be really top quality. The best teams playing week in week out."
we already have a league system which is working absolutely fine.
The knockout competition should be the secondary competition and should be an open-draw straight knockout.

provincial championships are a thing of the past and should be consigned to the history books.

s goldrick (Cavan) - 03/11/2017 09:40:17    2059979

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Replying To s goldrick:  "we already have a league system which is working absolutely fine.
The knockout competition should be the secondary competition and should be an open-draw straight knockout.

provincial championships are a thing of the past and should be consigned to the history books."
The league shouldn't be in February or March.

If it's going to be your main competition I think it needs to have a flatter structure so that the weaker teams still can get some sort of exposure, or else it could be bad for interest in the game in those smaller counties.

I wouldn't care to watch Antrim in division 4 league action particularly. Watching them play division 2 North versus Down or Derry could be exciting.

Basically the idea is to get as many of the exciting games played as possible.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 03/11/2017 10:07:42    2059987

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The league shouldn't be in February or March.

If it's going to be your main competition I think it needs to have a flatter structure so that the weaker teams still can get some sort of exposure, or else it could be bad for interest in the game in those smaller counties.

I wouldn't care to watch Antrim in division 4 league action particularly. Watching them play division 2 North versus Down or Derry could be exciting.

Basically the idea is to get as many of the exciting games played as possible."
I like the 1st Div 12 and 2nd Div 2x10 regional tiered structure.
For the Sam AI KO - I'd prefer Div 1 top 4 to AI QFs (seeded 1 to 4), next 5 to the QF Playoff Rd (seeded 5 to 9), bottom 3 down.
Div 2 - N & S - 2x6 to KO - Inter group 1v6, 2v6, 3v5 - 6 winners to Rd 2 - 3 winnrrs (seeded 10,11,12) to Playoff QFs and promo to Div 1.
AI QFs - 1v8or9, 2v7or10, 3v6or11, 4v5or12.

omahant (USA) - 08/11/2017 05:58:16    2061118

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Basic Approach

Have leagues (3-4). Top 4 teams in each division go into semi-final. Winner of the division 1 is the All-Ireland Champion.
Run the provincial Championships in parallel

Start the season in late April
Done by late August.
Defined season for all - with all bar top 4 sides in each league finishing in early August.

Have Club weekends where Counties must play Club Championship matches to keep lads engaged and show a bit of respect.

Ban (Westmeath) - 08/11/2017 15:14:38    2061225

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Replying To Ban:  "Basic Approach

Have leagues (3-4). Top 4 teams in each division go into semi-final. Winner of the division 1 is the All-Ireland Champion.
Run the provincial Championships in parallel

Start the season in late April
Done by late August.
Defined season for all - with all bar top 4 sides in each league finishing in early August.

Have Club weekends where Counties must play Club Championship matches to keep lads engaged and show a bit of respect."
I really like the basic approach too.

You could go back to the old school All Ireland system and just play the league in parallel with it.

April to August. Leave September and October completely free for all.

Week 1 League round 1
Week 2 League round 2
Week 3 Club week
Week 4 Break
Week 5 League round 3
Week 6 League round 4
Week 7 Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds (Potential club week for counties without games)
Week 8 Break
Week 9 League round 5
Week 10 Provincial quarterfinals
Week 11 Break
Week 12 League round 6
Week 13 Provincial semifinals
Week 14 Break
Week 15 League round 7
Week 16 Break
Week 17 Provincial finals
Week 18 Break
Week 19 All Ireland semifinals
Week 20 Break
Week 21 All Ireland final

Simple but potentially really exciting. Could give more onus to the league with it being played at a better time of the year.

For the weaker counties the league is a more important competition for them than the qualifiers.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 08/11/2017 18:50:17    2061285

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Replying To OLLIE:  "I would have three tiers with Senior having 12 teams and Inter and Junior having 10 teams each. Basing the seedings on how the counties finished up last year in the league:

Senior would have 12 teams (All 8 Div 1 teams plus top 4 teams in Div 2).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Monaghan, Mayo, Tyrone, Cavan, Roscommon, Galway, Kildare, Meath and Cork. There would be 3 groups with 4 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get a home match, an away match and one match would be neutral. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Cavan, Cork, Donegal, Dublin.
Group B: Galway, Kerry, Kildare, Mayo.
Group C: Meath, Monaghan, Roscommon, Tyrone.

Top 2 in each group plus the 2 best third places go through to the quarter-finals. It would all be ranked:
A) Group winner with the best record v third place team with the worse record. (1 v 8)
B) Group winner with the second best record v third place team with the second worse record. (2 v 7)
C) Group winner with the third best record v Runners up with the worse record. (3 v 6)
D) Runners up with the best record v Runners up with the second best record. (4 v 5)

Semi - Finals:
1) Winner Match A v D
2) Winner Match B v C

Final:
1 v 2

Relegation:
This would be the 3 teams that finish bottom plus the 3rd team with the worse record. This would also be ranked:
A) The 3rd team with the worse record would play the bottom team with the worse record. (9 v 12)
B) The bottom team with the third worse record would play the bottom team with second worse record. (10 v 11)

The two losers from A and B would play each in the relegation final with the loser going down to Inter.

Inter would have 10 teams.( Bottom 4 teams in Div 2 plus top 6 teams in Div 3).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Clare, Down, Derry, Fermanagh, Louth, Tipp, Armagh, Sligo, Offaly and Longford. There would be 2 groups with 5 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get 2 home matches and 2 away matches. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Armagh, Clare, Derry, Down, Fermanagh.
Group B: Longford, Louth, Offaly, Sligo, Tipp.

Third place teams would meet the runners up in the quarter-finals:
1) Runner up in Group A v 3rd team in Group B
2) Runner up in Group B v 3rd team in Group A

Semi-Finals:
A) Winner Group A v Winner of 2
B) Winner Group B v Winner of 1

Final:
A v B

Relegation:
1) Bottom team in Group A v Second bottom in Group B
2) Bottom team in Group B v Second bottom in Group A

The two losers from 1 v 2 would play each other with the loser going down to Junior.

Junior would have 10 teams.( Bottom 2 teams in Div 3 plus all 8 Div 4 teams).
The teams that finished in this position last year were Antrim, Laois, Westmeath, Wexford, Carlow, Limerick, Leitrim, Waterford, Wicklow, London. There would be 2 groups with 5 teams in each group. Each team plays each other once. Each team would get 2 home matches and 2 away matches. It would be open draw so going on alphabetically order this is how the groups would turn out:

Group A: Antrim, Carlow, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick.
Group B: London, Waterford, Westmeath, Wexford, Wicklow.

Third place teams would meet the runners up in the quarter-finals:
1) Runner up in Group A v 3rd team in Group B
2) Runner up in Group B v 3rd team in Group A

Semi-Finals:
A) Winner Group A v Winner of 2
B) Winner Group B v Winner of 1

Final:
A v B"
Where did you copy and paste this from ;)

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - 08/11/2017 21:01:46    2061301

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Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Every club team wants to play in the senior championship too (well except for Corduff in Monaghan but thats another story). Every team dont nor shouldnt.
Intermediate and junior teams celebrate championship wins as much for the promotion as the cup itself. A second tier competition based on progression will work, a second tier competition run between loser teams will not."
Agree with a lot you say. Losing, weak teams playing each other will not improve teams. The Tommy Murphy cup was a disaster.
I'm intrigued by Corduff-care to explain? Is Corduff Banty's Club?

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - 08/11/2017 21:04:15    2061303

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Replying To s goldrick:  "we already have a league system which is working absolutely fine.
The knockout competition should be the secondary competition and should be an open-draw straight knockout.

provincial championships are a thing of the past and should be consigned to the history books."
I'm not been smart here but how would you feel if Cavan won Ulster? I remember the last time, the celebrations were amazing. If Cavan beat say Down, Donegal and played and beat Tyrone in an Ulster final in front of 30 plus thousand I'd say no one in Cavan would work for a week. Now is unlikely at the the moment but in a few years who knows

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - 08/11/2017 21:09:01    2061306

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Where did you copy and paste this from ;)"
I didn't.

OLLIE (Louth) - 09/11/2017 13:19:51    2061394

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If you were to have a two tier system I suggest you do it in the following way:
Take the top four counties (in truth the only counties likely to win an All-Ireland in the foreseeable future) and have them play some kind of super cup competition, on a league basis among themselves. If this league was attractive enough it might generate enough money to pay the players.

All other counties play for the All-Ireland with an open draw. (Retaining the Provincial c'ships is possible within this set-up but would raise familiar problems. )

neverright (Roscommon) - 09/11/2017 13:46:16    2061396

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "I'm not been smart here but how would you feel if Cavan won Ulster? I remember the last time, the celebrations were amazing. If Cavan beat say Down, Donegal and played and beat Tyrone in an Ulster final in front of 30 plus thousand I'd say no one in Cavan would work for a week. Now is unlikely at the the moment but in a few years who knows"
I think some of the feelings towards the Provincial championships are a bit irrational.

The way I see them is they're just the opening stages of the tournament. One sided games are to be expected. They're also just a marketing tool. Ulster semifinal is a better sell to me than Championship round 2. The regional rivalries adds a bit of spice.

There's some problems that comes with them. They're not balanced. Them and the qualifiers make scheduling difficult.

That'd be the main reason to get rid of them.

Realistically they're going nowhere. The GAA know they're money spinners.

The players like them also as evidenced by the feedback the GPA received last year. I think they are sometimes forgotten in all this.

I think there are lots of ways they can be kept without hurting scheduling, making the system fairer and incorporating league into championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 09/11/2017 22:09:21    2061502

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