National Forum

Fitzmaurice's Comments

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Well what do we think of EF's comments on Dublin's physicality?

I think past the headlines it's pretty reasonable stuff. To be fair to the Dubs, I don't think any of their squad care what kind of challenge is put in front of them, they'll mix it any which way you want and that is why they are so good. But I do agree with Fitzmaurice that the media love to paint it a certain way. A lot is forgiven because they are such a brilliant attacking team, but not many talked about the off the ball fouling of Ryan McHugh last year for example.

Before this gets a load of Dubs getting defensive, of course all the teams are at it. I guess my only point would be that I agree with Fitzmaurice here, nobody is whiter than white when it comes to these tactics. Sometimes we start it, sometimes you start it, it's all about winning at the end of the day. No shame in that.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 05/04/2017 10:18:00    1975904

Link

Replying To JoeSoap:  "Well what do we think of EF's comments on Dublin's physicality?

I think past the headlines it's pretty reasonable stuff. To be fair to the Dubs, I don't think any of their squad care what kind of challenge is put in front of them, they'll mix it any which way you want and that is why they are so good. But I do agree with Fitzmaurice that the media love to paint it a certain way. A lot is forgiven because they are such a brilliant attacking team, but not many talked about the off the ball fouling of Ryan McHugh last year for example.

Before this gets a load of Dubs getting defensive, of course all the teams are at it. I guess my only point would be that I agree with Fitzmaurice here, nobody is whiter than white when it comes to these tactics. Sometimes we start it, sometimes you start it, it's all about winning at the end of the day. No shame in that."
I have no problem with his comments at all. I Do however believe it's smacks of desperation especially when he brings up the Lee Keegan stuff. Safety in numbers and all that. I think what a number of Kerry pundits did re condoning roughing Connolly up was far worse of I'm honest. I will say that when a manager has to go down this route...like Horan before him, they aren't fully concentrating on their task at hand.

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 05/04/2017 10:28:49    1975908

Link

Don't have a problem myself, of course Dublin have a hard edge, you have to be competitive. We are not a dirty team, but we will compete against you if you want to play football in the gutter.

Gutter football is one of the methods Kerry have employed to break up Dublin's momentum, sadly I think Fitz comments mean this is exactly Kerry's approach to the game on Sunday.

To be honest I think he's getting his spoke in early before the media inevitably criticise Kerry and his management for the spectacle that seems to be coming on Sunday.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 05/04/2017 10:35:27    1975911

Link

Replying To JoeSoap:  "Well what do we think of EF's comments on Dublin's physicality?

I think past the headlines it's pretty reasonable stuff. To be fair to the Dubs, I don't think any of their squad care what kind of challenge is put in front of them, they'll mix it any which way you want and that is why they are so good. But I do agree with Fitzmaurice that the media love to paint it a certain way. A lot is forgiven because they are such a brilliant attacking team, but not many talked about the off the ball fouling of Ryan McHugh last year for example.

Before this gets a load of Dubs getting defensive, of course all the teams are at it. I guess my only point would be that I agree with Fitzmaurice here, nobody is whiter than white when it comes to these tactics. Sometimes we start it, sometimes you start it, it's all about winning at the end of the day. No shame in that."
Fitzmaurice was defending his position and his approach. Nothing wrong with that. He's entitled to set up his team any way he likes with the ultimate goal of winning.

Re the actual comments themselves, I didn't see a huge amount wrong with them. They were generally factually correct (the dragging in the last minutes of the 2013 final etc. I don't remember the choking incident but that's not to say it didn't happen) and he acknowledged that all winning teams have the hard edge.

On the flip side, was what Curran and McMahon said incorrect re the Kerry physicality this year? I'd argue not and they're entitled to their opinions, same as Fitzmaurice. I don't buy into this "orchestrated campaign" nonsense. There's generally no smoke without fire and while the media do tend to exaggerate these things to sell papers / gain clicks, such narratives are nearly always based on factual evidence so I don't see how they can be just dismissed as media targeting.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 05/04/2017 10:37:07    1975912

Link

Replying To Jackeen:  "I have no problem with his comments at all. I Do however believe it's smacks of desperation especially when he brings up the Lee Keegan stuff. Safety in numbers and all that. I think what a number of Kerry pundits did re condoning roughing Connolly up was far worse of I'm honest. I will say that when a manager has to go down this route...like Horan before him, they aren't fully concentrating on their task at hand."
I'd agree and disagree I suppose there. I don't think managers in general should get pulled into this kind of stuff, and there are plenty of Kerry lads in the media who are well able to put forward their case, however much like ourselves in 2011 it gets to a stage where players and the squad are getting disrespected and the manager must feel he has to step in to protect them. And to be fair to Fitzmaurice I don't think he ever really gets involved in this stuff, but clearly he feels enough is enough.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 05/04/2017 10:41:18    1975915

Link

Replying To JoeSoap:  "Well what do we think of EF's comments on Dublin's physicality?

I think past the headlines it's pretty reasonable stuff. To be fair to the Dubs, I don't think any of their squad care what kind of challenge is put in front of them, they'll mix it any which way you want and that is why they are so good. But I do agree with Fitzmaurice that the media love to paint it a certain way. A lot is forgiven because they are such a brilliant attacking team, but not many talked about the off the ball fouling of Ryan McHugh last year for example.

Before this gets a load of Dubs getting defensive, of course all the teams are at it. I guess my only point would be that I agree with Fitzmaurice here, nobody is whiter than white when it comes to these tactics. Sometimes we start it, sometimes you start it, it's all about winning at the end of the day. No shame in that."
Smacks of James horan 2012 to me.
I haven't heard anybody from inside the Dublin camp complain about physicality, yesterday Philly McMahon was interviewed and said why wouldn't they use physicality to try and win.
as for his orchestrated media on Lee Keegan it's a bit laughable really as it's Keegan who is targetting players and because he finally got caught in the act (or rather actually awarded a black card instead of ref copping out with two yellows) somehow he is the victim, it was fitzmaurice own county men who came out preaching for people to target Connolly off the ball to try get him to react and get sent off so I see he failed to acknowledge that side of the media.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 10:50:25    1975920

Link

Replying To hill16no1man:  "Smacks of James horan 2012 to me.
I haven't heard anybody from inside the Dublin camp complain about physicality, yesterday Philly McMahon was interviewed and said why wouldn't they use physicality to try and win.
as for his orchestrated media on Lee Keegan it's a bit laughable really as it's Keegan who is targetting players and because he finally got caught in the act (or rather actually awarded a black card instead of ref copping out with two yellows) somehow he is the victim, it was fitzmaurice own county men who came out preaching for people to target Connolly off the ball to try get him to react and get sent off so I see he failed to acknowledge that side of the media."
Of course you won't hear it from inside the camp as it's ex players in the media who are doing it for them

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 05/04/2017 11:23:02    1975933

Link

Replying To JoeSoap:  "I'd agree and disagree I suppose there. I don't think managers in general should get pulled into this kind of stuff, and there are plenty of Kerry lads in the media who are well able to put forward their case, however much like ourselves in 2011 it gets to a stage where players and the squad are getting disrespected and the manager must feel he has to step in to protect them. And to be fair to Fitzmaurice I don't think he ever really gets involved in this stuff, but clearly he feels enough is enough."
But it's not like 2011 for Donegal which I agree was ridiculously excessive across all media fora. Has anybody called Kerry out before now about this. Afaik it's just since the match in Tralee as it was a systematic & obvious tactic rather than the usual dark arts that ALL teams employ. Paul Curran doesn't speak for the Dublin team. Nor do the O'Sé brothers speak for Kerry. EF, however, does. So let him at it. I expect more of the same on Sunday & I Fully expect our boys to handle themselves accordingly. To be fair, they are well able.

Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 05/04/2017 11:25:33    1975934

Link

Replying To hill16no1man:  "Smacks of James horan 2012 to me.
I haven't heard anybody from inside the Dublin camp complain about physicality, yesterday Philly McMahon was interviewed and said why wouldn't they use physicality to try and win.
as for his orchestrated media on Lee Keegan it's a bit laughable really as it's Keegan who is targetting players and because he finally got caught in the act (or rather actually awarded a black card instead of ref copping out with two yellows) somehow he is the victim, it was fitzmaurice own county men who came out preaching for people to target Connolly off the ball to try get him to react and get sent off so I see he failed to acknowledge that side of the media."
Relax a bit, you're going way overboard on Keegan there. Keegan is a player any county would love to have and he is one of the most talented players in the country (current poty for a reason). He does have a tough side to his game as well as the skillful side. He's a brilliant man marker when required and tries to get away with whatever he can to keep his opponent quiet and this is no different to other brilliant defenders out there such as Philly McMahon, Johnny Cooper and Neil McGee etc. So I don't think it was fair of ex Dublin players to highlight Keegan in the national media inbetween the drawn match and the replay. Would you have liked it if ex Mayo players were talking about McMahon or Cooper in the same way before the replay? I'm guessing not so EF does have a point IMO. I do agree with you though in relation to the actual Dublin team and management. None of them ever complain as they know physicality is part of them game and they're well able to look after themselves. I'm just afraid that the ex Dublin and Kerry players have started something that other ex county players will follow in the build up to big games. The media will be the big winners

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 05/04/2017 12:03:33    1975953

Link

Mobot
yes Keegan is a good player but that don't mean he can break the rules now does it?
It's quite simple really, if he doesn't commit them off the ball or cynical fouls he won't get a black card.
if your going to do that type of stuff you can't complain when you get caught.
Blaming the media is childish as its not them on the pitch making the decision to foul it's him.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 16:04:08    1976055

Link

Replying To hill16no1man:  "Mobot
yes Keegan is a good player but that don't mean he can break the rules now does it?
It's quite simple really, if he doesn't commit them off the ball or cynical fouls he won't get a black card.
if your going to do that type of stuff you can't complain when you get caught.
Blaming the media is childish as its not them on the pitch making the decision to foul it's him."
Haha, Keegan is the only footballer to "break the rules". Any footballer worth their salt tries to get away with as much as possible and Keegan is no different. Not that I want to get into a black card debate but as a neutral watching last years game I thought that Keegan's black card was pretty harsh. It looked like he was making a genuine attempt to get back goalside of Connolly to put in a challenge when Connolly slipped and keegan fell on top of him. There was a tug back before that which would of caused Connolly to slip but I thought it should of just been a free in and maybe a yellow card but not a black. He probably did get away with other incidents in the first game and I think this influenced the ref in the replay.

I think the overall point EF was making is that all that top teams including Dublin are guilty of cynical play and because Dublin are such a wonderful team and play a lovely brand of football their cynicism is brushed under the carpet. An example I would give from a Donegal perspective is last years All Ireland Quarter final. Dublin were far the better team and deserved to win by more than the 5 points they did but all the talk after the game was how Donegal "targeted" Connolly to get him sent off and there was absolutely no mention of how Dublin players sytematically fouled Ryan McHugh off the ball. They took turns blocking off his runs and dragging him to the ground and one of these incidents lead to a yellow card for McHugh and Connolly that should of resulted in a black card for Connolly. What was the final give away for me was the motm interview Ciaran Kilkenny gave to sky sport afterwards when without being asked anything about Donegal he brought up Ryan McHugh and mentioned how hard it was to stop him running at you etc. as to show how much he was in their minds in the build up to the game. Dublin are no worse that any other team, most teams that play Donegal try to curb the influence of McHugh and Murphy and it makes sense to do so. If Donegal happen to meet Dublin later in the summer you could see ex players like Eamon McGee and Rory Kavanagh highlighting Dublin's systematic fouling of Ryan McHugh to the national media to try an influnece the referee. A new unfortunate trend could be set.

Mobot (Donegal) - Posts: 459 - 05/04/2017 17:24:43    1976095

Link

Replying To hill16no1man:  "Smacks of James horan 2012 to me.
I haven't heard anybody from inside the Dublin camp complain about physicality, yesterday Philly McMahon was interviewed and said why wouldn't they use physicality to try and win.
as for his orchestrated media on Lee Keegan it's a bit laughable really as it's Keegan who is targetting players and because he finally got caught in the act (or rather actually awarded a black card instead of ref copping out with two yellows) somehow he is the victim, it was fitzmaurice own county men who came out preaching for people to target Connolly off the ball to try get him to react and get sent off so I see he failed to acknowledge that side of the media."
I don't think he is complaining about the cards that Keegan got but the media campaign which, to an outsider, appeared to be highly orchestrated with ex-Dublin players playing their part. Managers and players play mind games blaming the style/aggression/whatever of their rivals trying to get an edge. However, the Keegan campaign was on a totally different level and has no place in the game. (Dermot Connolly has also suffered a somewhat approach over recent years)

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 05/04/2017 17:42:42    1976100

Link

Replying To hill16no1man:  "Mobot
yes Keegan is a good player but that don't mean he can break the rules now does it?
It's quite simple really, if he doesn't commit them off the ball or cynical fouls he won't get a black card.
if your going to do that type of stuff you can't complain when you get caught.
Blaming the media is childish as its not them on the pitch making the decision to foul it's him."
Of course the media, in the guise of ex Dublin players, influenced Keegans black card. In the drawn game there were three obvious off the ball pulling down of players, Keegan on Connolly, Connolly on Keegan and Fenton on McLoughlin. I'm sure if you trawled through the footage you would find more, but only one was highlighted on the Sunday Game, tellingly by an ex Dublin player. The following Sunday you had a prominent article in one of the Sunday papers, also by an ex Dublin player, suggesting that an early card for Lee would be beneficial to the game, well Dublins game anyway. Another ex Dublin player was interviewed later on in the week and he also intimated that Lee was single handedly responsible for all the current ills in the Gaa. Now these insidious articles obviously had an affect on decision making in the replay. Lee Keegan, without question, fouled Dermot Connolly. On another day it was a yellow card and move on. But the seed had been sown, and with the Hill howling for blood, the masses had to be appeased. Do you honestly think that had Lee Keegan performed a similar foul early on to the one by John Small on Andy that he would have remained on the field? Oh I forgot the referee didn't actually see that one!!!! The tactic worked, and I suppose the end justified the means, but denying that it was orchestrated and that it had no affect is not tenable imo. Many players foul, both on and off the ball, but one was singled out so it was hardly a coincidence that he was the one to be made an example off.

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 05/04/2017 17:42:54    1976101

Link

Lads you can bring up examples and defer attention all you want but face facts the media can say all that they want in the build up to a game but if Keegan doesn't foul he won't get the card on the day, it's up to him to play within the rules and if he doesn't and gets caught well then you cannot blame anybody other than Keegan himself. That goes for any player.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 05/04/2017 18:14:02    1976115

Link

Replying To Llaw_Gyffes:  "Of course the media, in the guise of ex Dublin players, influenced Keegans black card. In the drawn game there were three obvious off the ball pulling down of players, Keegan on Connolly, Connolly on Keegan and Fenton on McLoughlin. I'm sure if you trawled through the footage you would find more, but only one was highlighted on the Sunday Game, tellingly by an ex Dublin player. The following Sunday you had a prominent article in one of the Sunday papers, also by an ex Dublin player, suggesting that an early card for Lee would be beneficial to the game, well Dublins game anyway. Another ex Dublin player was interviewed later on in the week and he also intimated that Lee was single handedly responsible for all the current ills in the Gaa. Now these insidious articles obviously had an affect on decision making in the replay. Lee Keegan, without question, fouled Dermot Connolly. On another day it was a yellow card and move on. But the seed had been sown, and with the Hill howling for blood, the masses had to be appeased. Do you honestly think that had Lee Keegan performed a similar foul early on to the one by John Small on Andy that he would have remained on the field? Oh I forgot the referee didn't actually see that one!!!! The tactic worked, and I suppose the end justified the means, but denying that it was orchestrated and that it had no affect is not tenable imo. Many players foul, both on and off the ball, but one was singled out so it was hardly a coincidence that he was the one to be made an example off."
That's a great impression of Lionel Hutz:
"I have lots of hearsay and conjecture....those are kindsa evidence"

keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 06/04/2017 09:27:53    1976346

Link

Replying To keithlemon:  "That's a great impression of Lionel Hutz:
"I have lots of hearsay and conjecture....those are kindsa evidence""
On the other hand you'll usually find that if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck...............

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 06/04/2017 10:16:36    1976371

Link

I find his comments encouraging to be honest, I mean if the belief is external factors are causing defeats I would be concerned as a Kerry fan that the focus for self improvement isn't coming from within where I feel it has to. I'm not sure its particularly helpful for himself or the squad, one of the huge problems for Dublin teams of old was hype and media pressure, that's been countered over the last decade by an almost player and staff conclave before a game, cocooned by the outside world. Dancing with the media brings its own problems.

Each to their own though, Fitzmaurice and Keegan gate, sure its nothing to do with us really.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 06/04/2017 10:27:53    1976380

Link

The only player that got Lee Keegan sent off was Lee Keegan. He finally got his comeuppance. Mayo should play him wing forward and let his talents shine. He is a gifted football player but is wasted when he is man-marking other team's best players - in gaelic football, that means swinging out of players. That is what he did. he got caught. He should have been given the line against Tyrone as well. Instead, Sean Cavanagh got it.

The most frustrating thing about gaelic games is that we have 7 officials - 6 of them do nothing to help the referees enforce the rules. Eddie Kinsella said the other week that Kerry v Donegal was 'un-refereeable'. No game should be like this. If ex players go to the media and complain about rough house tactics. They are only talking about what we can all see. If officials get their act together and apply the rules consistently we won't have such issues. Its the inconsistency that drives people mad. Keegan deserved the black card. His only issue can be with why loads of others (on his own team and Dublin - John Small??) didn't get one too. He didn't deserve to be a scapegoat.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 06/04/2017 10:28:04    1976382

Link

Replying To bennybunny:  "The only player that got Lee Keegan sent off was Lee Keegan. He finally got his comeuppance. Mayo should play him wing forward and let his talents shine. He is a gifted football player but is wasted when he is man-marking other team's best players - in gaelic football, that means swinging out of players. That is what he did. he got caught. He should have been given the line against Tyrone as well. Instead, Sean Cavanagh got it.

The most frustrating thing about gaelic games is that we have 7 officials - 6 of them do nothing to help the referees enforce the rules. Eddie Kinsella said the other week that Kerry v Donegal was 'un-refereeable'. No game should be like this. If ex players go to the media and complain about rough house tactics. They are only talking about what we can all see. If officials get their act together and apply the rules consistently we won't have such issues. Its the inconsistency that drives people mad. Keegan deserved the black card. His only issue can be with why loads of others (on his own team and Dublin - John Small??) didn't get one too. He didn't deserve to be a scapegoat."
Undisputable logic there

Very good post

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 06/04/2017 10:36:17    1976391

Link

Anyone who looks back at public comments can see that there was a concerted effort in lead up to match to influence referee to free up Connolly. Lee Keegan did not pull Connolly down , Connolly fell after been fouled (silly but that is distinction in black card anomaly ,not what I think the rule should be), The Referee was only giving a free but on foot of been told by Connolly what he was supposed to do he produced a black card. This was Dublin working the present system well just as others would if they could manage it. Lets be honest

GAA could easily give players a fair opportunity by bringing in a video ref in croke park. But controversy helps gain interest and brings in spectators and money. What do you think is more important.

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 06/04/2017 11:43:55    1976427

Link