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Replying To Galway9801: "As far as I'm aware, winning a provincial championship in the new system doesn't even get you to a quarter final, never mind a semi final.
And I've seen no evidence that the new system is going to produce any new all Ireland champions or contenders. In fact the new system allows the traditional powers to lose even MORE games and still reach a final. All that stuff about allowing teams the chance to gel together etc applies as much to the strong counties as the weak ones.
The covid year, which resulted in yet another Dublin mayo final btw, was no more equitable than 2010, 2003 and 2004 were also good years for the underdog.
I just think the new system is too drawn out. I thought the old qualifiers struck a nice balance between giving teams a second chance and not having a bloated schedule." 2022 was a one off season with qualifiers and Tailteann Cup. It did have the appearance of a backward step from the Super 8s of 2018 and 2019.
One of the original plans for the Tailteann Cup was that it would be a double elimination format, i.e. the loses of the first round getting a second chance.
For the 2022 All-Ireland series, a criticism of the one season format was there was no second chance for provincial winners. Back around 2010 Dublin and Tyrone brought a motion that provincial winners would enter a Champions Round. Winner off to semi-finals and the losers off to the quarter-finals against only two qualifiers.
There is merit in that Champions Round suggestion. The Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers could compete in Round 1. Round 2 would see provincial runners-up against Round 1 winners. Round 2 winners going on to Round 3, preliminary quarter-finals. Two preliminary quarter-final winners progressing to the quarter-finals against the two Champions Round losers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7958 - 05/05/2024 23:38:21
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Replying To legendzxix: "2022 was a one off season with qualifiers and Tailteann Cup. It did have the appearance of a backward step from the Super 8s of 2018 and 2019.
One of the original plans for the Tailteann Cup was that it would be a double elimination format, i.e. the loses of the first round getting a second chance.
For the 2022 All-Ireland series, a criticism of the one season format was there was no second chance for provincial winners. Back around 2010 Dublin and Tyrone brought a motion that provincial winners would enter a Champions Round. Winner off to semi-finals and the losers off to the quarter-finals against only two qualifiers.
There is merit in that Champions Round suggestion. The Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers could compete in Round 1. Round 2 would see provincial runners-up against Round 1 winners. Round 2 winners going on to Round 3, preliminary quarter-finals. Two preliminary quarter-final winners progressing to the quarter-finals against the two Champions Round losers." It's a reasonably fair criticism imo, re the provincial champions not getting a second chance but it's quite common in almost all sports tournaments that eventually things go to straight knockout and you just get on with it.
Take the champions league and world cup for example, you can win every game of your group but ultimately once it reaches the knockout stages you may end up being eliminated by a team who has already lost once or twice.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1786 - 06/05/2024 08:24:38
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Replying To Galway9801: "It's a reasonably fair criticism imo, re the provincial champions not getting a second chance but it's quite common in almost all sports tournaments that eventually things go to straight knockout and you just get on with it.
Take the champions league and world cup for example, you can win every game of your group but ultimately once it reaches the knockout stages you may end up being eliminated by a team who has already lost once or twice." The Munster and Leinster hurling champions can't really look for a safety net at that stage. The 2010 argument was that the football provincial champions round winners getting to the All-Ireland semi-finals wouldn't be looking for for a safety net at that stage either. It's a matter of identifying the round that everyone agrees that a second chance is no longer necessary. Semi-finals seem to be the fairest shout.
2023 for example could have been a Champions Round of Dublin v Galway and Kerry v Derry. Dublin and Kerry off to the semi-finals. Galway and Derry off to the quarter-finals against only two counties coming through the other route e.g. Monaghan and Armagh for arguments sake.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7958 - 06/05/2024 09:56:18
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Lots of people have been coming up with different format changes and some really good ideas on these pages.
This is year 2 of the experiment and yesterday showed the good and the bad.
Clare got their shot at home but weren't good enough whilst Galway v Mayo went into battle for the trophy but had that niggle that winning it could be a Pyrrhic victory.
I understand GAAs desire for getting fixtures out early to help fans plan thereby increasing chances of attendance but if we are to preserve with this type of format, one minor suggestion would make all the difference.
Make the draw before the four provincial finals AND keep the two teams from each province in the group. Final doubles up as round 1 of group stage. Winner hosts seed 3, loser hosts seed 4 before final matches away from home.
1. It makes amount of games played fairer
2. Provincial trophy still at stake and plenty of spice in final
3. Seed 3 v 4 also neutral game same weekend
4. Seeds 3 and 4 cannot go into own province of beaten by either finalist so Ferry and Tyrone would likely end up in Dublin or Kerry group and Rossies don't get second shot at Mayo. It keeps ties fresh and ensures if one province is weaker, Dublin and Kerry more likely to be challenged in games after.What
5. With 3 teams emerging from groups, it means beaten provincial finalist has time to recover albeit in the danger zone and unlikely to top group. Means finals are seen as almost must win thereby holding the provincial spice required. Also means highly unlikely provincial champions could get eliminated at group stage but they will want to kick on to avoid prelims
It only reduced 4 games from calendar but with more at stake every game, attendance will rise.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 224 - 06/05/2024 15:51:32
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Replying To shaggykev: "Lots of people have been coming up with different format changes and some really good ideas on these pages.
This is year 2 of the experiment and yesterday showed the good and the bad.
Clare got their shot at home but weren't good enough whilst Galway v Mayo went into battle for the trophy but had that niggle that winning it could be a Pyrrhic victory.
I understand GAAs desire for getting fixtures out early to help fans plan thereby increasing chances of attendance but if we are to preserve with this type of format, one minor suggestion would make all the difference.
Make the draw before the four provincial finals AND keep the two teams from each province in the group. Final doubles up as round 1 of group stage. Winner hosts seed 3, loser hosts seed 4 before final matches away from home.
1. It makes amount of games played fairer
2. Provincial trophy still at stake and plenty of spice in final
3. Seed 3 v 4 also neutral game same weekend
4. Seeds 3 and 4 cannot go into own province of beaten by either finalist so Ferry and Tyrone would likely end up in Dublin or Kerry group and Rossies don't get second shot at Mayo. It keeps ties fresh and ensures if one province is weaker, Dublin and Kerry more likely to be challenged in games after.What
5. With 3 teams emerging from groups, it means beaten provincial finalist has time to recover albeit in the danger zone and unlikely to top group. Means finals are seen as almost must win thereby holding the provincial spice required. Also means highly unlikely provincial champions could get eliminated at group stage but they will want to kick on to avoid prelims
It only reduced 4 games from calendar but with more at stake every game, attendance will rise." If provincial finals double up as All-Ireland group stage Round 1, what happens when the provincial finals are level at the end of normal time?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7958 - 06/05/2024 17:04:14
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Replying To shaggykev: "Lots of people have been coming up with different format changes and some really good ideas on these pages.
This is year 2 of the experiment and yesterday showed the good and the bad.
Clare got their shot at home but weren't good enough whilst Galway v Mayo went into battle for the trophy but had that niggle that winning it could be a Pyrrhic victory.
I understand GAAs desire for getting fixtures out early to help fans plan thereby increasing chances of attendance but if we are to preserve with this type of format, one minor suggestion would make all the difference.
Make the draw before the four provincial finals AND keep the two teams from each province in the group. Final doubles up as round 1 of group stage. Winner hosts seed 3, loser hosts seed 4 before final matches away from home.
1. It makes amount of games played fairer
2. Provincial trophy still at stake and plenty of spice in final
3. Seed 3 v 4 also neutral game same weekend
4. Seeds 3 and 4 cannot go into own province of beaten by either finalist so Ferry and Tyrone would likely end up in Dublin or Kerry group and Rossies don't get second shot at Mayo. It keeps ties fresh and ensures if one province is weaker, Dublin and Kerry more likely to be challenged in games after.What
5. With 3 teams emerging from groups, it means beaten provincial finalist has time to recover albeit in the danger zone and unlikely to top group. Means finals are seen as almost must win thereby holding the provincial spice required. Also means highly unlikely provincial champions could get eliminated at group stage but they will want to kick on to avoid prelims
It only reduced 4 games from calendar but with more at stake every game, attendance will rise." I like it
The big thing it also does is save 3 weekends in the calendar.
All provincial finals have a weekend off before and after the provincial final.
The only issue is that Mayo, Galway & Rossie is always home or away. Same for Kerry v Cork. But they can be incorporated below.
Instead of Group no's it could be
Connacht Group - Rd 1 Connacht final
Munster Group - Rd 2 Munster final
Leinster Group - Rd 2 Leinster final
Ulster Group - Rd 3 Ulster final
That way you have a good provincial to start and end the round robin (we might get a good Munster or Leinster final again sometime)
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1145 - 07/05/2024 06:52:23
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admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas
emmomac (UK) - Posts: 268 - 07/05/2024 08:53:49
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Replying To emmomac: "admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas" OK
Last 12 - Galway, Armagh, Derry, Dublin, Mayo, Cavan/Ros, Donegal, Tyrone, Cork/Clare, Kerry, Monaghan, Louth/Meath.
Last 8 - Galway, Derry, Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Mayo, Armagh, Dublin.
Last 4 (if they haven't met in Qtr Finals) - Kerry, Derry, Dublin, Donegal.
Last 2 - wishful thinking... Derry, Donegal.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1517 - 07/05/2024 10:54:33
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Replying To emmomac: "admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas" I have to agree. That's talk for when the championship is done. Plenty time to fill in late autumn and winter.
The group stages have some interesting match-ups. Yes 3 go through, but avoiding that preliminary quarter by finishing top is a big advantage.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2080 - 07/05/2024 14:21:05
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Fair enough.
Just thought it was a small tweak to current system that would help it, flagged because of Galway v Mayo.
Donegal v Armagh centre stage. As a Donegal fan, though it's great to have the Jim Factor up and running, this still feels like a 50/50 game.
McGeeney probably has it as a must win. Loser won't fancy their chances against Derry at all. Likely loss there, hopefully beat Westmeath away and then play Galway neutral….my instinct is you'd be better off accepting 3rd place and not flogging yourself three weeks in a row. More chance of pulling a Monaghan that way of reaching a semi final. Still highly unlikely though so point remains…Ulster final is as close to must win territory.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 224 - 07/05/2024 15:09:18
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Replying To legendzxix: "If provincial finals double up as All-Ireland group stage Round 1, what happens when the provincial finals are level at the end of normal time?" A point each - extra time for the cup.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2670 - 07/05/2024 16:35:56
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Replying To legendzxix: "2022 was a one off season with qualifiers and Tailteann Cup. It did have the appearance of a backward step from the Super 8s of 2018 and 2019.
One of the original plans for the Tailteann Cup was that it would be a double elimination format, i.e. the loses of the first round getting a second chance.
For the 2022 All-Ireland series, a criticism of the one season format was there was no second chance for provincial winners. Back around 2010 Dublin and Tyrone brought a motion that provincial winners would enter a Champions Round. Winner off to semi-finals and the losers off to the quarter-finals against only two qualifiers.
There is merit in that Champions Round suggestion. The Tailteann winner and 7 league qualifiers could compete in Round 1. Round 2 would see provincial runners-up against Round 1 winners. Round 2 winners going on to Round 3, preliminary quarter-finals. Two preliminary quarter-final winners progressing to the quarter-finals against the two Champions Round losers." I like Whammo's idea more:
Rd 1 - league lowest 16 non-Prov Finalists
Rd 2 - next lowest 8 non-Prov Champs v Rd 1 winners
Rd 3 - remaining strong 8 v Rd 2 winners
QFs, SFs & Final.
That Champions Rd you mentioned, I heard coming from Mickey Harte first. Initially, I didn't like it as both the front door & back door streams were both extended by one round, preserving the lopsided nature of the Provs. I like it more as you described it, limited to 16 teams (Tailteann 16 could run the same way).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2670 - 07/05/2024 16:52:19
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Replying To emmomac: "admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas" Some of us would rather focus on games without a proper structure - a bit like flying an aircraft trans atlantic without a sense of direction - getting lost would be ok if we enjoyed the flight I suppose, not.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2670 - 07/05/2024 17:07:13
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Replying To emmomac: "admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas" To be fair the discussion should remain within the format changes thread.
Kerry v Monaghan
Galway v Derry
Clare v Cork
Mayo v Cavan
These are the confirmed games coming up. Probably the best chance for Clare to get a win if they can. Lose and they'll probably be out after two rounds.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7958 - 07/05/2024 17:39:18
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Replying To omahant: "A point each - extra time for the cup." Yeah agreed. If teams level after 3 games, the team that won in extra time finishes above.
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 224 - 07/05/2024 18:25:11
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Replying To shaggykev: "Yeah agreed. If teams level after 3 games, the team that won in extra time finishes above." There is a thread for you morons to carry on your nonsensical "I have a bigger teddy bear than you" conversations, and leave us GAA fans to chat and debate and even argue about the 70 interesting matches that will in 11 or 12 weeks lead us to crown the 2024 Sam Maguire and Tailtean Cup winners.
ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 156 - 08/05/2024 02:29:02
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Replying To emmomac: "admins need to get a grip of the forum here. Barely any talk on the games
you have all gone lula on champ structure chats its bananas" You are right
Hogan stand admin won't step in
If it wasn't for championship structures talk, there might be no talk at all
It also is a waste of time as the structure was changed last year and won't be changed until next year anyway.
The real issue is GAA football is not in a good place at the moment and if not fixed soon, will lose its place as the top sport in Ireland
1. Championship structure is still flawed
2. Cynical play (including defensive play) continues unaddressed (every sport has introduced some basics to prevent it - GAA has only added black card)
3. Player dropp off - the focus on elite players/coaching over participation has resulted in the effect that the majority of underage players quit GAA (despite "participation" supposedly being the main reason for the existence of the GAA
4. Elite player burn out - due to the focus on elite players, there is a huge amount of repetitive injuries among the better underage players by the time they hit 21 (why any coach of a men's team will continue to pick and train a player U20 is beyond me (especially if he is playing county and sigerson)
5. Abuse of referees - there are not enough referees to keep up participation Levels, because of the abuse inflicted on them.
6. Lack of a short version of the sport (that is embraced by the association) - that doesn't need a ref.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1145 - 08/05/2024 03:24:40
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Replying To shaggykev: "Fair enough.
Just thought it was a small tweak to current system that would help it, flagged because of Galway v Mayo.
Donegal v Armagh centre stage. As a Donegal fan, though it's great to have the Jim Factor up and running, this still feels like a 50/50 game.
McGeeney probably has it as a must win. Loser won't fancy their chances against Derry at all. Likely loss there, hopefully beat Westmeath away and then play Galway neutral….my instinct is you'd be better off accepting 3rd place and not flogging yourself three weeks in a row. More chance of pulling a Monaghan that way of reaching a semi final. Still highly unlikely though so point remains…Ulster final is as close to must win territory." What makes you think it would be a loss to Derry.It would be Celtic Park but home to Westmeath first but hopefully it will be Tyrone in McCumhaill Park not that I like playing them very much.
gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 1073 - 08/05/2024 16:14:00
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What brilliant game of football the Ulster final produced.I don't think I've ever seen a game like it that had so many fantastic points scored from big distances by both team.Jimmy is back winning matches and congrats to Donegal but you have to feel for Armagh.Lose two Ulster finals in a row on penalties and knocked out of the championship two years running on penalties also.Congrats to both teams.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3704 - 12/05/2024 18:43:56
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Yes Mick it was superb, the Ulster championship should never die. I'm glad Leinster wasn't the bloodbath everyone was expecting.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8612 - 12/05/2024 19:07:37
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